Welcome back, Gerry. You were missed.

Here I thought you where going for an all time comment record and it was just a wee break in the country. Great post as usual and you where indeed lucky to be away with all the vitriol, not to mention gloating that came with the Spurs set back. I don’t now if you saw the article on the main site, this was after Wednesday but they slated Lucas as being average and for giving us nothing so it was great to see your comments about him because I think he really has received the rough end of the stick by a lot of knee jerkers who call themselves fans.

I think the reason both Masch and Lucas sat deep was because of the injury to Carra and Skertal from Carra’s one man demolition derby efforts; apparently Skertal had double vision for most of the game.

He does look a bit like Hercules doesn’t he, not the person to meet in a dark ally. Interesting competition between him and Skertal for the Iron Man crown. Not too sure how or with what we will make another signing, but I like your optimism.

welcome back Gerry. good to know you had a good holiday.

I guess the upside to all these pundits constantly putting us down is that it makes proving them wrong soooo much sweeter.

I’m with you Gerry, hoping (and praying) we’ll see one more signing…
YNWA

Wow, upon looking up wikipedia, I found Waterford to be quite a historic old town founded by Vikings a thousand years ago. Some “middle of nowhere” place you’ve been, Gerry. Though it’s still nothing compared to Merseyside.

Credit to Gerry for not openly condemning a certain someone for his infamous “I-told-you-so” post on the last blog, as that easily qualifies as “Knee Jerk Post of the Season”. That post was way bang out of order.

(Obviously, you know who you are. If you think I’m picking on you, then yes, I’m guilty as charged and I apologize if I hurt your feelings, but you really ought to seriously reflect on why I choose to pick on your example in the first place.

I confess I’m not a Mr Nice Guy like FS or Knight here, but I can be as venomously vindictive as Mr Ferguscum if I ever see something really offensive to the Liverpool Way. )

Thanks Kinny, I was actually outside of Waterford City in a little place called Stradbally.

Burnley 1 Everton 0.

This season’s Hull has arrived.

Kinny Riddle

You are definitely trying to stir things up with your post at no 5, aren’t you? Lol! I’m one of those ‘day trippers’ who will be at Anfield tomorrow night. A Torres hat trick will do quite nicely. It will make the 6 hour journey on the coach back to London more enjoyable.

On a serious note, I believe our boys will be too strong for Villa if we get in their faces from the 1st minute. I’ll settle for a 2-0 victory as well.

Welcome back Gerry. I didn’t really expect you would be the sort of person to run away and hide when we lose the league. But there you are right after we lost the league at White H Lane you dissapeared. Shame on you.

Good post as usual. And I am glad people started to give at least some credit to Lucas. If he continues to develop at this pace he will be massive for us come second half of the season.

Aquaman looks like a genunine playmaker with an eye for a pass. Can’t wait to see how will he team up with G&T and Kuyt as them 3 really know how to run off the ball.

Villa monday.. if we get in their faces and fight for every ball we should be able to stuff them. So here is to an end of our Monday night draws run – 3:0 reds. (and i usualy don’t predict scores)

Welcome Back Gerry, did you bring us all a stick of Rock????

Watched the Wet Spam Spurs game..what was Cole thinking with that pass back ?
He certainly helped turn the games momentum towards Spurs..

Super stuff Gerry,

I`m a little sick now i was at a wedding yesterday for the whole day and night and again today for the Cork match.

Oh ya i`d just like to say we`re in another All Ireland final!

As for monday night i`m hoping the lads can carry on the good form.It is important we turn Anfield into a fortress again.

I`d too like to see the same team starting.Benayoun did enough to keep his place for me and Ayala fitted in nicely to the side.Sound performance from the young lad.

Lucas is also playing well and handling the responsibiity quite well.I`ll be the first to admit i often thought he offered us nothing but he`s starting to show signs of what Rafa has seen in him for quite a while now.Maybe we should just trust the man at the helm.

Apoligise to anybody who got those e-mails from me.Some idiot has hacked into it so i cancelled the account altogether.

Got that tenner Donal thanks.Had a pint today with it whilst watching da Rebels do Tyrone in the football semi:)

Rome,i`m not sure it is a virus i think its cookies,i`m not all that clued up in the area of I.T. but i`ll ask a friend who is to take a look.Cheers pal.

What on earth has happened to Everton?
Is it disruption due to all the Lescott business (they’ve announced today, his signing by Citeh pending a medical by the way)… teething pains… or have they just gone to shit?

Anyway… Wigan rolled over and showed their belly for a tickling against the Scum… unfortunate coz they’re not half as good as anyone think they are, and will drop points if teams like Wigan would stop giving them confidence building results.
Chavs struggled to beat a very poor Fulham side today. (Would have expected more from Fulham)
The Arse had yet another easy game of it. Portsmouth are woeful!
So we won’t really know anything about any of them until they play someone good.

That said… come on you reds… giz a 3-1 and a shout on the tannoy…
Come In Number 19… Your Time Is Up!

Oh and I totally agree with Keith above.

I watched the Spurs game twice and the Stoke game 3 times.

V. Spurs, The Keystone Kops injury incident totally changed our shape. Not only did Lucas and Masch sit deep, but Insua and Johnson never ventured further than 20 yards away from Ninja and JC respectively.

Compare that to Stoke, where Lucas played further upfield and Insua & especially Johnson getting forward was instrumental to the majority of our attacks!

To the comment about the press ending up with egg on their faces. No matter what outlandish, senseless, non issue they print, they never end up being taken to task. They just move onto another dispicable angle with another ridiculous fabricated story.
.
Hope to win at least 3-0 against Moaning O’Nearlys team.

I think we’ll beat Villa tonight. Looking forward to more of the same from Glenda and stevie g.

Don’t think the game is on telly anywhere. Why play it on a Monday night then ?

Very excited about tonights game.

Neilob where abouts are you from?

Why do we have to give Johnson a gay nickname like Glenda? Cant we just run with Glen or is there some significance that I’m missing?

Looks like Voronin is here to stay, if this is for real:

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11669_5510951,00.html

the game is on ESPN

Nice one Galway

Looks like I’ll be up at 4 am for it then

Beer o clock time again

Over and out

Thanks for the blog Gerry

Glenno sound harder Terry?

Excellent blog Gerry and considering the jerking knees that were on display after the spurs defeat, a very appropriate one as well.

Donal, it seems you are next on my head-to-head hitlist and I am at home as well. Bring it on!!!!

Terry, never heard of Glenda Jackson?

BTW, here’s a good article of Pepe and lots of nice comments about him from the gaffer!

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2009/08/24/1458268/liverpool-keeper-pepe-reina-is-best-in-premier-league-rafael

great blog Gerry, (I’m a newish blogger but have been reading Kopblog for a while)you think you had problems in Waterford; we were visiting my wife’s family in deepest darkest Tyrone and headed into Cookstown to watch the Stoke match, the only place in town showing any football was screening the manc match and as i had dragged my father in law along had to sit through the entire match (though the result was worth it) to watch the last ten minutes of the stoke match. If that wasn’t bad enough I missed the spurs match cos we were travelling up from Galway visiting more family!
Hopefully tonight we can improve on last years result again villa. I reckon 6-0 should do it.

It might indeed be a good time to play O’Neill’s team. They’ve not found their groove and are currently worse off than we are, performancep-wise. If Heskey is their chief offensive threat at present then he’s a bit off at the moment (I think Carew’s out injured too), which also applies to Agbonlahor. However, they offer genuine threat from two areas, the wings (Young and Milner) and central midfield – assuming Petrov will be on form. Petrov though is not Barry and I feel he’s not getting younger. I feel that either of Lucas or Masch can deal with him. Their wingers, Young or Milner might prove a handful to GJ or Insua, or even Ayala should he play. We’ll see although I remain confident overall.

Young is not yet back to his best, but Milner is arguably the Villans most consistent player lately. There’s also hope for our offense because this season’s edition of Villa are shaky at the back. The overall confidence of this team is down, if Steve Sidwell’s alleged remarks about his team being relegation fodder material at present, are anything to go by.

What I do wonder though is what happened to Riera. Any news? We’ve not seen or heard about him much since Spain’s last friendly before the PL season began.

very quiet in here lads with only a few hours to the game!!
What odds on the same team being put out as mid week? Can’t say i’d have any issues with it.
Only potential change would be at CB or the option of giving Riera a start.
Apparenlty some bookies will lose a mint tonight if Torres scores first as Rooney, Drogba and Adebayor all scored first and a special was being offered at 20/1 if all 4 did it, so come on fernando!!!
have a tenner on torres and 3-1 myself.

I think it’s just a fitness thing with Riera and Dossena. Since they both returned back late to pre-season training after taking part in the Confetti Cup, other players are at a higher fitness level up to now. Even if fitness wasn’t a factor I would still prefer to see Insua and Benny on the left based on their current form but I’m sure Dosser and The Albert will get their chances in the weeks ahead.
Obviously Torres also played in that competition but we just afford not to have him in the side. Even so I think it’s clear that he hasn’t been at his sharpest up to now, which just shows how important it is to get a full pre-season under your belt.

Tis quiet indeed I’ve been drinking CASS for the last few hours to keep meself awake and hope that the game is shown on korean telly

otherwise I’ll be well pissed off and will kneejerk about koreans on this blog for the rest of the evening!!

…….only messing Ill probably just fall asleep mid-wank

…………..only messing again!!

hoping for a Torres hat-trick to win the fantasy league as he’s my capt. but in all honesty 3pts and I’ll be happy

Over and out

Well here’s the team for tonight.

Fist XI:
Reina, Insua, Johnson, Skrtel, Carragher, Lucas, Mascherano, Kuyt, Benayoun, Gerrard, Torres

Subs:
Cavalieri, Voronin, Riera, Ayala, Dossena, Kelly, Babel.

Good to see that Scary is back in action at centre-half and the Onion has deservedly kept his place.

Come on you red men!!!

Fist XI sounds good!

Almost kickoff time!! \o/

and Lucas scores…on the wrong end

Can’t believe this mess.

For a game that started so promisingly for us too..dang!

..and I cannot believe how the ref is allowing Torres to be mauled like that throughout the half..wtf?!?

Well lads half time report

Our boys are looking as dodgy as a diahorreah fart

the 1st goal was deserved although Lucas shouldnt shoulder all the blame

the 2nd was the cap that canned the can of shite

This isint kneejerk its just my observation

we never came out of the blocks…at all

I aint blaming Rafa or no one but we just didn’t

Villa deserve their lead and our lads can only blame themselves

Im still hoping for a turnaround at Anfield as I think we can win this one but some of the lads need a kick in the sack

Not trying to be kneejerk but fuckin’ell have a go at them lads

Im hoping for more in the 2nd half and fair play to Villa for making us look like canadians for the last 45 mins

Roll on the 2nd half and youll never walk alone

Over and out

Martin Atkinson has been a completele clown. Walking around like he is the one on show. Fuck I cant stand the man, mind you, ive consider him a below average umpire for a long time.

I hope we dont get the knee jerkers going off at Lucas again. In fact, besides the OG I think some of his passes have been clever in the first half (especially comparing to Gerrard who is playing well below par).

Roll on second half

Donal, i think we looked alright, but that first goal really buggered us up. Cant believe we didnt score in the 10th minute, had about 5 shots within 5 seconds all inside the box.

I disagree, Donal. Villa don’t deserve their lead – it was a dodgy own goal that got them there, the lucky bastards! The start of the game was terrific – I thought we were gonna score any minute. I wonder why we faded after that, but hopefully Rafa will make the right adjustments. We can still turn this game around.

As soon as I saw the referee was Atkinson I was apprehensive and so it proved.There was no protection from him for Torres-black eye,torn shirt,elbow in the head and the list goes on.
Given that he was over the time for the end of the half, I bet it would not happen at Old Trafford.
We are in a mess and will just have to score at least 3 goals!

Just cause ive got nothing to do in the half time break.

Id take one of the holding midfielders off, drop Gerrard a bit deeper (get him and his killer passing involved) shift Benny behind Torres and Riera on the left.

I read a stat in an article during the Summer that 47% of the goals we conceded last season were from set pieces. That stat reads 100% so far this term. And our perennial old friend ‘missed chances’ is back aswell it appears. 3 players in 1 attack incapable of burying a gilt edged chance. Well at least its one thing they’re all on the same page on…..sigh….. Surely we can only improve in the 2nd half?

Pardon my french. By the fuckwits on the telly are talking about zonal marking again.

Fair enough AKKA thats why I think we can win it but in all fairness we look lackluster at best
Im hoping for a big 2nd half

Over and out

Trying to stay positive boys, but it just isn’t clicking right now. 20 mins to go and we still haven’t scored.

I can’t believe Villa will keep a clean sheet, is it possible? Just remember they pissed away a two goal lead at Old Toilet last spring with 20 minutes to go.

GAME ON…

Not quiet Lurgan, CMON PEPE

Sums up our day really. We havent done ourselves any favours, but maybe this will put a rocket up our arses

Just like that, my hopes are dashed. Fuck.

OK, I will shut me gob!!!!

5 goals allowed this season, all have come from set pieces.

Lurgan i wasnt saying that mate. I meant to type “Not quite” and not “quiete.

Nothing is falling our way (remember last year when we would get chances going our way early in the season).

Akka, No harm done mate.

Actually, I didn’t see your comment before posting and I was just a bit pissed off with myself because I am a bit of a skud when it comes to posting like that!

Anyway, can’t wait for the comments from our fellow fans.

Lurgan I think i will dissapear for a few days. Cant stand knee jerkers especially cause i know exactly what they will say.

Man of the match has to be Friedel.

why the fuck do all our ex-goalies tend to be MOTM against us. Another great save from Glenda as I write!

#57: Akka he would be my choice as well.

I think out build up play was too slow throughout the whole game and allowed AV to get back in numbers without being stretched out of position.
Just a few notes on a few players.

Positives:
Skrtel – Played well, even played some nice balls going forward which hasnt been seen much last year.

Average :
Johnson – seemed reluctant to attack today.
Torres – Not a fan when he back chats and argues, i think that puts him off his game.

Poor:
Gerrard – wasnt up to his normal self and didnt provide much.
Mascherano – worked hard but his passing was terrible.

unbelievable, just unbelievable

Well lads,a very dissappointing result but credit to Villa for the way they defended.They closed up the space well and made it very difficult.We ran out of ideas tonight as an attack.

There will be no finger pointing from me though.The team just didn`t perform.

i’m gonna go and kick the cat…

Maybe the owners would panic aka kneejerk and give Rafa 20M tomorrow morning..anyone else see any other silver lining?

No knee jerk reaction as of yet. But what was Gerrard thinking… he wasnt even close to taking the ball. I also feel like Akka, when Torres mouths off it tends to through him off his game. I do understand his frustration though because in all the games so far he has been met with headbutts and elbows with out even a whistle. I dont blame Lucas either, he was average and unlucky with the own goal. I got the sinking feeling in my stomach when we didnt score in the Torres, Gerrard, Benayoun shamble. The lads just have to pick themselves up and keep going.

Kneejerkers? 2 defeats from our first 3 games. Same old problems continue to manifest themselves season after season: utter inability to perform anything resembling defending against set pieces, frightening ability to consistently sqaunder chance upon chance. Kneejerkers? How bout people who can identify a pattern? Lets call them that instead. Extremely frustrating disappointing night. Body language of the players towards the end VERY worrying. Almost accepting of the situation, not good, not good at all.

I love my dog, so I wish I had a cat so I could kick the living shit out of it!

we’ve now lost as many games in the first three games this season as we lost in the whole of last season!

Digger I have a feeling that had we lost in any other way (goals not from set pieces) you would have identified that area as a “pattern”

Defense seems a major worry.

I too agree that our players should stop arguing with the referees.

But in my mind this loss was due to overconfidence. We started brightly and their defense was looking way out of place. But instead of putting them under pressure, we chose to step back and invite them to attack. And that strategy backfired when Villa got lucky.

I feel we did allow them a way into the game after the early pressure and that was our big mistake. Not the zonal making, not Gerrard’s lunge, and not the bucket of missed chances. We lacked a killer instinct tonight, as I believe the game could have been over by half time.

van-leffo #68..and first time we lost a game in which Torres scored!

Whoever says team didn’t show intensity & tenacity tonight get some sense. Masch,insua,kuyt,carra burst their lungs out. I know why we lost today : 1. Lucas was ……. ( fill in as u like ), 2. Villa r too good 2 let 2 goal lead slip away 3. Fortune didn’t favour . Observation: voronin is a deadmeat . Win or lose, i luv liverpool. But the team is weighed down with the burden of expectation . Anxiety in their faces say so. God forbid, If rafa goes , …… my mind is going numb ! With god on our side, we shall roar back. Keep believing.

Not gonna say Number 19 is now a laughable dream or anything after 3 games but we have given ourselves a huge mountain to climb already. With 4 or 5 very strong teams about this year – I don’t really think a potential championship winnin side can afford to lose more than 4 games. So that leaves with two game breathing space. I, unfortunately am deeply sceptical that this current squad is good enough. Midfield completely clueless

Though two games loseth doth not breaketh a season!

If a team loses 4 games and wins the rest in a season, it would have amassed 102 points..no way it is goin to happen..

sonofaKhan, I’ve just realised you’re right, that is the first time we’ve been beaten when torres has scored. I’m not gonna give the lads a hard time though, there’s not much more they could have done tonight (except finish) they worked hard and were completely dominant through-out the game, Villa benefitted from some outrageous luck.

Lads lets get over it, we are notoriously slow starters and have been for years. We dominated play but it wasn’t meant to be. However we need a player who will run into the box and take people on. When the only players doing that are your two fullbacks then someone needs to stand up and be counted.
.
Johnson had another fine game and looks like a shining gem at the moment. Insua played well as did Ninja Turtle and Carra. Torres get off your bottom lip and get on with it.
.
I personally don’t think we played that bad, it just didn’t happen today. I still think something wrong in the background, some sparks missing from the players and crowd.
.
Hopefully silver lining from the round. Fergie will believe his own hype and not buy another player, while our owners will see the error of their ways and invest. (Fat Fucking Chance).
.
Lads lets remember we only won about two games in pre-season, so lets not expect them to be tearing the comp apart just yet. (very slow starters).

well lads Im hoping this is the kick in the arse we needed

one at home one a way now on with the rest of the season

There’s nothing that can be said to dampen my spirits for the season ahead

Plenty of analyzing from this game just have to sober-up first

Over and out

Loads of things to think about for Rafa and the team after this performance. Yes, we were unlucky at times, but that’s no excuse. Our set piece defending looks like a serious flaw and must be fixed somehow. I didn’t understand it last season and I don’t understand it now. The performance by Gerrard was particularly worrying to me. It just didn’t work out for him tonight. I certainly don’t think we are unable to win against teams like Villa when he isn’t performing, but it’s undoubtedly going to be a whole lot more difficult to win when Gerrard is playing and having one of those nights. But of course, it’s a lot easier for pundits and critics to blame players like Lucas when things aren’t going well.

Confidence seems to be a little low at the moment.Shaky start to the season but we need to bounce back and we will no doubt.

We were poor tonight but need to react positvely at the reebok next weekend.

The international break could work in our favour for once.

van-leffo: Some outrageous luck and bad refereeing, sad to say it yet again. Their first goal was pure luck, their second when the ref should have blown his whistle for half-time and the third for a poorly timed tackle in which the cock gladfully tied his feet in an imaginary lasso. Not to mention the ref allowing Torres to be manhandled so extremely especially in the first half!

But yes, the lads worked their socks off to make a comeback and for that they all deserve a pat on the shoulder. Things will go in our way soon and I guess the bookies will tell us that.

Gerry…I too would like to kick the shit out of your cat!!

lets all kick Gerry’s imaginary cat, get rid of our frustation and move on. Bring on bolton.

Bugger that !

Mrs Dougle was all smiles and sweet promises tonight and I fecked off to that horrible barn of a pub where I just can’t seem to catch a break. Every bloody Sunday (see Spurs) or Monday night I go there we play crap/ unlucky/ whatever … I come home all adrenalised and pissed off trying to put a “well you can’t win ‘em all” face on it. Shes tucked up like a cat, smiles that “you poor sad fucker” smile and goes back to her book.

So that’s it. It’s over for me now, that shaggin’ bar and this shaggin’ hope that tonight’s/today’s the moment it’s all gonna work out.

So don’t blame rafa/ zonal defense / Lucas/ mascher … it’s actually my fault, I gotta find a new bar and a new ritual cos this just ain’t working out!

hey donal, timmy, aitch, fatty, jack and all. i havent commented in here in over three months, but i’m back.

what a start to the season…

i’m sure everyone will be all over this game with insight but i will put my main ideas and keep it short.

1. i think that gerrard has to move back to central midfield. as well as lucas and mascherano can play, we lack alonso’s ability to boss the midfield, and the only person that can do that in our side is gerrard. he can make all the long and short distance passes, control the pace of the game, and bomb forward like in the old days. give benayoun the free role, and slot in riera/babel wide left. when aquilani is fit, we can look at other options, but in my opinion, this must happen for the weekend and all our matches in the near future.
2. villa defended well, but had three goals gifted to them.
3. our defending at set pieces looks worrying.
4. the most troubling thing: how everyone’s heads dropped after the first goal conceded, and we couldn’t string together more than three passes. granted, villa played with 11 behind the ball for much of the match, but it was frustrating to see the players reaction to adversity.
5. torres needs much more protection from referees, but at the same time needs to shut up and get on with it. he is playing into defenders’ traps by getting flustered, running his mouth, and letting it get to him. get on with it lad, you are too class to fall prey to their rugby tactics. as an only striker he is receiving a brunt of tackles from the opposing center halves, but at this point, every defender is going to be doing it if they can get away with it. its atrocious. the refs need to clamp down on this.

enough from me. roll on saturday

YNWA

Welcome back Alec…Wanna kick Gerrys cat with us?

wouldnt mind giving it a go…

cheers timmy

Yeah Alec welcome back bro l
ets kick the living shit out of Gerry’s cat!!!

How many cats do you think Rafa’s been through this week. Chin up lads. Poor Lucas is coping a pasting on other sites, last time I looked he doesn’t pick himself or the team.

Gutted at the result. A few observations from what I saw…

1. We’re awful at set pieces. Defending and attacking them. That is unacceptable and needs to be sorted ASAP!
2. Masch and Lucas in CM does not gel. The partnership offers not enough going forward. Especially against the teams from the top half of the table.
3. The treatment dished out to Torres was appalling.
4. But he needs to cut the backchat and let his feet do the talking. For all his diving and showboating, Winker was given the same treatment as FT is now, but he would more often than not shove a goal or two back down his tormentors’ throats.
5. (IMO the most important) We need to realise that this season on, even the Villas and the Evertons and the Tottenhams are most likely going to become bus parkers at Anfield and looking to hit us on the break. No more is the tactic going to be restricted to the so-called “limited” teams. We used to be the exponents at this in the CL (Barca/Juve for starters) and we have to get used to the boot being on the other foot.

This is a compliment to us, for I reckon we have moved on from being seen as a stumbling block to the other teams’ 4th place ambitions to being one step above (i.e. potential champions) and hence the change in tactics against us. However it also means we’ve to learn how to break these teams down as well, and with all due respect to the Stokes of the world, its much harder now because the new bus-parkers have the capacity to hurt us even with 10 behind the ball, as we’ve just witnessed.

I’m with the call from alec above, move Stevie back to CM to partner Lucas/Masch and deploy Benny into the free role supporting Nando, with Riera on the left. And lastly, pray Aquaman recovers ASAP!

PS. A little luck would do quite nicely too!

Thats a great point Gaz and one I made a lot last season. I pretty much gave up criticizing the lad when it dawned on me: its not his fault. Nobody can change who they are or what they are (well in terms of football ability and talent at any rate). Yes you can get stronger, fitter, psychologically tougher, but whatever talent you have the first day you kick a ball til the day retire remains the same. Talent cant be taught and unfortunately Lucas dosent have sufficient talent to be in a title challenging 11.

Just to clarify, Im not slamming the lad and I’m not blaming him for tonights defeat (not entirely at least but lets face it, he scored the best goal of the night!). Anyway, just wanted to say I wish the lad well and am in no way slagging him, just pointing out whats patently obvious to me: he is simply not good enough. If Stevie dosent start alongside Masch against Bolton with Lucas dropping to the bench I’ll beshocked and both deeply saddened and worried by Rafas damaging intransigence.

If the cat had been looking the other way, the man who invented the Cat’s Eyes, would have invented the pencil sharpener instead.

Night. Night.

Brought the dog out for a late night walk but couldn’t find a cat anywhere, I never had much luck with pussy’s. But there’s a little bastard King Charles spaniel at the end of our road who always runs out of his garden barking as I go by with my Labrador. Normally I ignore him and just drag my dog away but tonight he caught me on a bad night and I sent him flying with a right good toe up the hole. You should have heard that little fucker yelping as he ran off, it made me feel much better and now I’m off to bed with a smile on my face.

Sorry Digger, but what a complete and utter load of fuckin bollocks!
“Talent can’t be taught!” Are you fuckin serious?

That is a statement made simply to prove your biased point regarding Lucas.
God-given talent is what it is, for sure, but many don’t live up to their potential for the want of either attitude or coaching… but to suggest that a person can’t increase their talent and ability for the game (or for anything in life) is ludicrous.

Have you ever coached the game for fucks sake?
I have and I’ve watched players get better before my eyes.
And as a player, I was a helluva lot better player at 38, when injury forced me to hang up my boots, than I was at 18 (minus the pace/speed obviously)

I’m sorry Dig lad, but you’re way off on that statement!

———
Lucas and Masch tore the shit out of Villa… so what the fuck is everyone on about that they can’t create anything.
We’d had 11 shots on goal before Villa even got a sniff. We put more balls in their box a than Jenna Jameson has had in hers…. we just didn’t have the money shot.

Oh, and I suggested we drop SG into midfield the moment the Alonso rumor began, but the fact is we created fewer chances after Lucas went off and SG dropped into midfield than we did prior to that change… so please… explain that one to me!
Its a valid personnel change idea, but not because we lost or don’t create enough without him there!

All told, we had something like 32 clear chances to score… the lads just didn’t have their shooting boots on and the ball just didn’t roll for us. Shit happens.
Every deflected ball went to a white shirt.
And don’t get me started on the Ref. Fuckin apalling performance… if I was Rafa I’d request a match fixing investigation.
(surprisingly, no one has even mentioned the clear cut penalty when Kuyt was barged off the ball, like Vorronin was at Spurs? No attempt to play the ball, just the man… WTF?)

Own goals are a moral killer… it was unfortunate and bad timing, since we’d been well on top to that point… but we were slow to get back into it after that and I think it was a combination of this sucker punch from nowhere and the constant bullshit from the ref. We let our heads drop.

Their 2nd goal shouldn’t have happened at all.

We got ourselves back into it and then… well what the fuck was Stevie thinking… Skrtel was right there to clear it… Anxiety?

The players let themselves get rattled and they’re gonna have to sort it out, coz MON just gave everyone the blueprint for beating us.
Hold fast for 20 minutes, be physical and kick the shit out of FT, defend with 10 men.

Well lads qulte a disappointment ,thought it was gonna be one of those nights
when that scramble at 8 mins didn’t go in, so when Lucas’s OG happened i
wasn’t supprised. Think the crowd thought the same as they were very quite
and Pepe winding himself up didn’t help because if you score just before HT
you usually win.( now that is a pattern Digger ) “and talent can’t be taught ”
just got to disagree with that.
FS Percy Shaw would have run it over. I remember seeing him when i was a
kid he’d drive around in his Rolls dressed like the man from Del Monte.

I’m about as way off as Lucas sideways passes – not at all! I think in your panic to defend the lad you’ve missed my point but whats new?! My point is that talent is innate, inherent, something your born with. I’m not saying players cant improve various facets of their game but that natural talent that a player is born with, you either have it or you dont. It cant be given to you. Natural ability is exactly that: natural. And Lucas dosent have enough of it to warrant a starting spot in our team imo.

Oh and Aitch, your opinion is just as biased as mine. Your opinion is just that: yours. Formulated and cultivated by your thought processes, your reasoning, your logic and as such is inescapably biased to your mind and its conclusions. One cant betray his own thoughts though our thoughts sometimes betray us! But despite your vehement repudiation of my ‘talent’ comment you feel that dropping SG back into midfield, thus jettisoning Lucas, is a valid idea. Careful bud, your thoughts betray you!

One thing about Lucas if he’d been on the field SG wouldn’t have given the
pen away,and i don’t think Alonso would have helped us as we had more than
enough shots/possession,And this sideway passing is also a result of having
better winger’s ie Johnson and Insua getting forward more and making them
available for the sideways pass.
I think natural ability goes as far as been athletic, the rest is having the right
coaching at a early age and the right attitude when you become a teenager
I reckon 99% of prem players have worked at it since they were 5/6 year old
and they’d tell you it doesnt come naturally.

Digger, I have to completely agree with Aitch.

Firstly, there is no way I would blame Lucas for the loss. FFS, do you blame Carra and call for his head for all those own goals?

In my view Lucas played some good balls going forward, it was SG, FT, Benny and Kuyt who didnt gel tonight. Whilst Masch did work hard, he cannot pass a ball atm. A few easy 5-10m passes were going to the opposition.

Exactly Rome, we had that many clear chances that Alonso wouldnt have made a difference as he doesnt go forward that much.

I love SG, but some of his actions did nothing to inspire the team. I saw a few hands flung in the air or telling players off. A little bit Stevie Me today.

Who said I’m blaming the lad for the loss Akka? Perhaps you should read post 93 again? Rome, fair enough mate, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the ‘talent’ issue. Interesting and sometimes amusing points there – by your reckoning with the right coaching and right attitude any member of the population could have become a pro footballer should their lifes path have had those specific elements!?Certainly an interesting theory! And to bring everything full circle, I guess Lucas validates that theory!!

As daft as it seem’s we have 1 more pt than last years 2 draws/1 loss playing
the same teams,so not that bad.
YNWA

I didn’t miss your point at all Digger. It was that Lucas is crap and will never be anything but.
The statement you made to defend that…. sorry lad… no way!

And I didn’t betray anything… read what I said, not what you want to draw from it to support what you said.

When all the rumors started to surface regarding Alonso, people were panicking talking about who we should buy to replace him.
I stated we didn’t need to buy a direct replacement, because we could drop SG back into midfield. I made that statement in part beacuse in my opinion, Benny is a much better “hole” player than SG… and by that I mean that position comes more natural to Benny than SG.

In fact, the statement sparked a two day “debate” during which all and sundry (yourself included)slated me for speaking such herasy and was accused of having a personal vendetta against SG since I always commented in the negative in his regard (still son’t know how they figure that one, but whatever…)

Lucas played far better than SG against Spurs, and was on apar with him against Stoke… and in my opinion was as good or better than SG today.
So while I may harbor ideas about pulling SG back into his more natural midfield role, I won’t let that blind me to the facts on display…

In today’s game, Lucas played well and his inclusion in the team was not the reason we lost…
Furthermore, SG didn’t provide significantly more going forward when he moved back into that position.
Watch the game again… that substitution wasn’t made because Lucas wasn’t doing the job… it was made to bring an additional attacker on in the form of Vorronin (someone else you think is crap but that’s a scapegoat debate for another time.)

But it suits your argument and you’ve already made up your mind regarding Lucas (as you did on Kuyt 2 seasons ago) so until he makes or scores a hat-trick every game, you’ll not be changing your mind anytime soon.

Once again twisting words to make your point Dig.

The alarming thing being, you are so much better than that.

Of course not everyone can be a pro footballer… but every pro footballer can be a better pro footballer.

Everyone on the planet can be a better “whatever” than they are…. you have to believe it, want it and work hard towards it.

I’m not a pro-footballer… nowhere near it.
I’m right footed but I taught myself to kick left footed in little more than 2 years… and that was part time after work. I now take better free kicks with my left than with my right.

If I can do that, pro-footballers who have fuck all to do but train and play footy 6/7 days a week, can do it too.

to not recognize that Lucas has performed better so far this season, than last, or the season before that, simply betrays your bias towards the lad.

And NO… he’s not my favorite player and I am not suggesting he can do no wrong, but I’ll stand by him, or any other player in Red, when people do him wrong.

Nature V nurture now that is a debate, but i think people tend to be products
of their environment
I think George dubya bush is proof that even a idiot can succeed if he gets
the right coaching and opportunity ( doesn’t help Lucas’s case ) but you get
my drift.

wrong example rome.
Dubya got elected (er if you believe that sort of thing) but was his tenure a success?

I’d hardly say so…

Aitch So what have you got against Stevie

If it wasn’t for his daddy he wouldn’t have been nominated he’d probably
be drunk in a bar somewhere or sat in a cell for a DUI wondering if he’d
still have his job when he got out.
PS dont think you’ll bite at the last joke/comment .

Who’s doing him wrong? Your debating here with someone who wants him to succeed. If he succeeds we succeed. So ease up on the paranoia bro! However based on the evidence before me -2 seasons where the poor performances considerably outweigh the passably average ones and the good ones can be counted on one hand, (they’re cited often enough by his apologists!), I conclude that we’re stronger when hes not on the pitch hence my wish to see Stevie partner Masch. Nothing personal, just business.

Digger. Whilst you didnt directly blame Lucas for the loss, it was implied. As was the fact that he is apparently completely shitehouse and should be playing. Otherwise you wouldnt bring it up just after the game.

Personally, like Aitch, i do not believe that, especially after the performances i have seen.

You remind me of a mate of mine, Chelsc supporter. He has probably seen a handfull of pool games (chelsea v pool games). This guy never stops talking about how crap Kuyt is. Even though Kuyt ws immense last season and so consistent, the guy believes this perception that was made by a few glory hunting supporters who believe every player has to be like ROnaldo to be a good player.

Digger, like we were stronger last night?.

You take the last few season. FFS, the lad was new to the country, no family or friends etc etc. Take his last few performances this season (and pre-season). If you dont think he has improved well than im baffled.

Going on your argument, Ronaldo was shite the first few seasons, and recently he was sold for 80mil. Fucks your argument completely.

Whats your point Akka? Is that an attempt at a slight against me?! Let me ask you this: do you think we’re a stronger 11 with Stevie partnering Masch or Lucas? Cos I know which one makes us stronger and at the end of the day thats all that matters. The team. And what makes it better is Lucas on bench and Stevie back in midfield til Aquaman is fit. Thats all I’m advocating. Im not bashing the guy or insulting him. Just giving my opinion on what would make us stronger and hopefully alleviate our malaise.

You havent once provided a proper argument yourself Digger, besides that Lucas was kak for 2 seasons.

I think Stevie is solid when playing behind Fernando and I dont think he is suited to playing as a Defensive Midfielder. If he plays with Masch as the DM, then he wont be able to get too far forward to unleash his shooting (this causes defenders to focus on him and create space for others). Lucas has shown enouh to me that he is capable of playing that role. Sure he scored an own goal, but he played some good passes and its not his fault we cant take 20 odd chances we had.

Having said that, if Rafa plays Stevie with Masch i wont have a problem with that either. But to say that without Lucas we are stronger considering the last 3 games is not accurate imho.

But im sick of arguing just as much as I get sick of losing. So roll on the weekend and hope we can comprehensively roll Bolton.

Any news on aquaman?
Riera?

Personally id start Riera on the left. He isnt as trick as Benny, but he holds the ball well and doesnt give it away as much. Plus he creates more width and stretches defenders.

Here is to hoping the Americans realise they need to release some funds from all the sales otherwise they will lose more in revenue (from cups etc) then they safe by not dipping into the market.

Yeah thats my argument fucked Akka. Superb debating skills mate! Lucas will be 23 in January. The same age Alonso was when he landed in Liverpool, a scary foreign land, with no friends, no family etc etc. Except those things dident prevent Alonso from playing football and having a superb season. Guess thats your point fucked then eh Akka? See, I can make silly points too mate. Why is my point silly? Cos its an unfair comparison. One is a highly talented footballer. The other isnt.

Ahahah Digger your point makes no sense, why?

Apparently Lucas’ last two seasons were kak (according to you, ill agree to a degree on that one). This however was when he was 20 and 21 y.o. and not 23 when Alonso first arrived.

Yes alonso arrived at age 23, Lucas isnt even 23 yet (a year or two makes a big difference in football) and in my opinion beginning to play some nice football now.

Im not saying Lucas is or will be a better DM than Alonso but your comparison is like comparing apples to oranges. You are comparing a 23yo arriving and playing descent footy for one season (before he played rubbish at 24y.o) to a 22yo playing descent footy atm who had some bad seasons when he was 20 and 21.

Just saw your 115 post Akka, surely being kak for 2 seasons is enough of an argument no?! Anyway I guess we’re on different sides of the line on this one and I’m sick of the Lucas debate too now. Its heading into its 3rd season for Gods sake. That in itself says it all for me. Like I said I support the lad when hes on the pitch and wish him well but for me all thats left is to wait for the eventual inevitable penny drop with folks such as yourself. We’ll see I guess…..Goodnight and good luck lads

Kuyt wasnt the best for a few season. Proved his doubters wrong now hasnt he?

Digger – “for me all thats left is to wait for the eventual inevitable penny drop with folks such as yourself”

Mate you sound like Kopking “i told you so”
From previous posts over the year etc, you never rated Rafa, it seems if Lucas fails you can come out and say “i told you so”

Maybe that is why some people on this forum chose not to argue with you, cause no matter what is said, it doesnt register

“surely being kak for 2 seasons is enough of an argument no?!”

so you’d be talking about Alonso there then eh Dig?

or maybe you were referring to Carra a few years back?

History is just that and has no bearing on this season.

All that matters is that for the last 3 games (and that is all that matters for this Prem campaign) Lucas has put in better performances than SG…. so the answer to your question is a fairly simple, NO.
In fact, I’d drop Masch before Lucas on the basis of the last 3 games.

If Lucas starts to stink the joint up… and there’s no evidence in the last 6 weeks of games to suggest he will, then you might have an argument… but you might want to wait until the lad is playing shite before making such an arguments.

Putting aside the first game of the season I think we’ve been lucky with the fixtures we have in these early stages. Even if we aren’t at our best, the upcoming 4 games could definitely have been a lot tougher. If only Gerrard in particular can get back to his ordinary level of consistency I think we’ll manage. There is no more room for slip ups now though. Apparently it’s become a key factor how we do in the set pieces.

There are no easy games in the Premier League they say, but to be honest we don’t have any really tough fixtures until October, and as long as we haven’t lost any more points by that time there’s no need for worry I think. This latest defeat must have a positive effect on the team however, make everyone more determined to improve and avoid the unfortunate defensive mistakes.

Hi lads!

2 defeats in 3 games. Its not at all a good start. Lets put everything aside and first remove this pressure of ‘This is our season’ from the shoulders of our players and us. I think the burden of expectation is getting into us. I saw the same level of desperation which was existing when Arsenal were here last season. Unusual nervousness around which was clearly visible in Gerrard,Torres,Carra etc.

Lets just stop thinking of the title as of now. I think the players should be given some time to settle now. Let them try to take one game at a time. Next up is Bolton and we go there to take 3 points.Nothing more.

We played free flowing football yesterday. We could have scored 5 goals. It was not our day and when it is like that, you just cant do anything. No point blaming anyone. We were destined to drop points yesterday. I feel sorry for Gerrard and Torres.

For those who think this squad is good enough to win the title, my suggestion would please pray what you are thinking is right. We have a great team which can beat anyone on a given day. But we are short on players who can make that difference on a day like yesterday.

I dont want to name individual players here but Torres failed to hold on to balls on many occasions which resulted in Villa breaking forward. Lucas has a tendency to give needless free kicks which should be looked into.

All said and done, i dont want to give a ‘Knee Jerk’ reaction. Even though we lost, we looked like scoring minimum 5 goals. Thats what will keep me going !

Lets keept the faith as Gerry says.

Sounds like if there was ever a dog that needed a good toe in the hole it was that one Gerry.
I wish I had an animal to kick to cheer me up.

Anyway I’m not going to cry about the defeat.
We lost 2 games last season too we just got them out of the way earlier this year.

I’m not gonna go on the whole Lucas debate only that I think he’s had a good start to the season.

Interesting debate about ‘can anyone be a pro-soccer player?’

I think with the right dedication and training….yes
Does it mean they’ll set the world alight? No.

Baggio, Ronnie Whelan and Messi have natural ability right?

But for every Baggio, Whelan and Messi theres a Salif Diao, Ali Dia and David May who are complete and utter shite.

Then you have the likes of Kevin Davies, Emile Heskey and Phil Neville who look like they cant play ‘keepie uppie’ all day or put the ball on the back of their necks but have had successful careers from hard work and determination.

Phil Babb apparently didn’t play soccer until he was 19 and he played in a World Cup and for Liverpool.

Anyway I think it’s a far more interesting debate than arguing about Lucas (especially with you Dig cause I know your a hoor for an argument and i don’t feel like pissing in the wind right now!)who is a Brazilian international, won Brazil’s player of the year, captained the Brazilian U-21 side and now (I am proud to say) plays for Liverpool……….so yeah I’d say he’s got SOME natural ability

Any Jokes MTMMC to cheer us up?

Anyway thats the craic (she said with one leg up on the table)

Last night never happened roll on Bolton

Over and out

Good post Somnath

BTW anyone else think Torres is gonna look like Mickey Rourke by the end of the season if he keeps getting the shit kicked out of him in every game?

Over and out

Sorry lads my Phill babb Stat was wrong

It was George O Connor and Hurling

my bad

Over

Well, I’ve had a good kip, got up, had me ciggie cup of tea and shite, and I tried, but couldn’t read all the comments. That’s just down to being a bit blurry though, and the argument going in circles. So, if I’ve missed anything I appologise, but I won’t to throw my two cents in now…

Everyone seems to be ganging up on Digger, and you all know I have more than my fair share of a go at him but… The lad has a point…

Lucas is not good enough to be playing in such an important position for a team who has asperations of winning the title.

That’s not saying he’s crap. That’s not saying he won’t grow into the role. It’s doing exactly what it says on the tin…
At this moment in time, Lucas is not good enough to run central midfield for a title winning team.

Me and Keith had a discussion about him not long ago, and I said then what I’m going to say now as it’s still a huge concern for me…

Lucas gives away some terrible dodgy free kicks in some seriously dangerous areas.

Funny enough, that is something that maturity/experience will/should take out of his game. But right now, it’s a failing of his game and something he isn’t going to stop overnight… As it’s something that happens to the best of and most mature of footballers – (Stevie G peno, for instance).

But right now, it’s something that Lucas does consistently and anyone has the right to be concerned about that and the player in general as he just isn’t up to bossing the midfield for a title winning team – And Digger has the right to say so.

But the real problem is, what are we going to do about it?

1: Go with it?
2: Pull back Gerrard?
3: Chance Benny in there?
4: There really isn’t a 4. Well, there isn’t really a 3 if we are being honest.

So, it looks like Rafa has a decision to make. What should that be? I’m not even sure at this stage.

If Lucas was a wide player, it wouldn’t be of so much concern. Like Babel, we could give him games, and if it wasn’t happening we could sub him out, and give him another chance in the next game.

And yes – God given talent or not – more game time would result in Lucas becoming a better player and even growing into the position, but can we chance that if we want to win the league?

I could go on, but probably still wouldn’t make me point properly and even if I did, I think it would be miscontrued. I talked about it in a previous blog, and I used this analogy… Would Lucas do a Kuyt if he was given the time?

People started jumping all over the fact I named Kuyt, instead of seeing the point. So even after a good night’s kip, I can’t be arsed right now. And I haven’t been in here since Sunday because I was telling people to stop adding up mythical points for us and our opponents and I got bollacked for that. So I stayed out because I knew this was a very dodgy game and we could well run into trouble.

I tried to say as much but people were calling for 6 – O. Even the main site said it. I saw the headline but didn’t read the piece. I don’t think I’ve ever read anything in there anyway, and if that headline is anything to go by, I won’t be bothering anytime soon. But instead of saying I Told You So, I will just say…

Football is a funny old game. If it was so easy to predict, I would be a millionaire and not my bookie. There’s plenty of twists and turns ahead. And at this point there’s only one thing that really concerns me…
Chelsea will probably keep on grinding out result after result no matter how badly they play. So, if we want to win the title, we can not let them get too far ahead. Which brings me back to… Rafa has a huge decision to make.

And to come off the fence, right now I’d say, in my opinion, the best thing to do would be to drop Stevie G back into the role Rafa sees for Aqualini – not quite alongside Masch and not quite behind Nando – and play Benny just ahead of him.

Rome lad, I am mightly impressed by this…
“FS Percy Shaw would have run it over. I remember seeing him when i was a kid he’d drive around in his Rolls dressed like the man from Del Monte.”

Did you live near him when you was a kid?

Nice deabte going, so here goes. Anyone who has ever coached any type of sport, knows you can nurture talet but you can’t create it. That is the sole domain of the person being coached. They either have talet or they don’t.
.
I was suggest the person who primarily coached Kaka would have coached thousands of others before he came across a talent like him.
.
Lucas has talet he showed that when he skipped away down the line, however he also has plenty of attributes that need nurturing, one is his senseless need to give away silly free kicks around the edge or in the box.
.
It’s a good debate but in a way Digger is right you either have it or you don’t. I personally think he’s a real talent but needs constant direction, however that’s my view, which leaves me to think it’s players like Carra, Stevie and such who need to push him through these barriers.
.
Torres has issues, his holding of the ball needs a serious look, as does his passing, but he’s a talent in other area’s. That’s what a coach does, nurtures these people by working on aspects of their game which they don’t notice but they have to think about.
.
Anyway we’re all correct, next up Bolton Rugby League Club. Yahoo.

Sorry Lads the words talent are spelt wrong in the first two lines.

How anyone in here can have a go at Nando is beyond me.

People are complaining about him complaining… FFS The lad has been getting battered to fuck in England. He’s already looking like he’s gone 3 rounds with Tyson, not 3 games of footy.

In fact, he has been kicked to fuck for season after season since he was a kid at Atleti and if something isn’t done to protect him, he’s going to be finished as top class player by the time he’s 28.

He came to Liverpool because he was absolutely choka with having the weight of all Atleti’s hopes put on him. What’s he finding here… well, it’s not much better, is it?

Other people are moaning about his passing and his holding the ball…
1: It’s hard to pick out a pass in a penalty area that’s packed with about 12 bodies, when you are the only one in your team that’s in the area.

2: It’s hard to hold on to the ball when the defender charges into your back – usually with a forearm to the back of your neck – and the referee does fuck all about it.

If you lot start on Torres, I will definetely give up all hope. And as for Rafa, he shouldn’t be saying the lad is moaning too much. He should be telling Refs that he isn’t playing Murder Ball.

2 main issues from last night. Our defending was poor and trying to plug the huge hole left by Alonso’s departure.

It’s understandable that Rafa was to leave Gerrard playing behind Torres but he may have to re-think this and I think Benny is part of teh solution.

On the positive side, we are only 1 point worse off from the 3 corresponding games last season (maybe this will be my job for the whole season). We are slow starters and all the top teams will drop more points than usual. But we need to keep the gap as small as possible to the top and go on a bit of a run.

It not often I disagree with you FS but I think you are way of the mark, it is something I have come to expect from Digger, stirring up the debate for stirring sake but how this defeat turns into a Lucas is not good enough beats me, he was probably one of the better players on the pitch.

When Benny missed the opening chance and then first Torres, then Benny again, then Gerrard, this was in the 6th minute, I thought to myself I hope this is not going to be one of those days. As it turned out it was and we could have played all year and not won this one with the way the ball was rolling. To suggest that Villa deserved this win is way of the mark. Yes they defended well, stifled us and took their chances.

We dominated everything but on the score sheet especially in the second half, despite a shit load of chances that we should have taken in the first half. The one critisim of Rafa that I have and can understand his thinking but disagree, yes in hindsight, was we where very narrow and instead of Vorinon I would have brought on Reira and moved Benny inside, then maybe Babel for Kuyt later. However the way thongs went it probably would have made no difference; it was just not going to be.

Our two best players is where the problem lay, they are not at their best, certainly not were they where last year. Yes the Ref was bad and Torres was exposed, but arguing and looking for the fouls, which I find he is doing more and more, disrupts the entire team. He needs to stop feeling the world is against him and get on with it because it is affecting his whole game. I sympathize with the lad getting the shit kicked out of him, but if the Ref does not protect him moaning about it is not going to make matters better. He is also starting to make a meal out of tackles trying to get the free kick because he is not being protected.

People talk about Lucas being wasteful, giving free kicks away in dangerous positions well if he gave away two or three free kicks it was a lot, the own goal is part of life and could have happened to anybody it just happened to be Lucas. I lost count the amount of times Gerrard, Torres, Benny, Kuyt and Masch gave the ball away, miss placed passes. Yes when you dominate and a team sits deep and you are chasing a game this can happen, but Lucas was not the culprit here, in fact he was one of the better creators and passes on the field. The chances that fell to Kuyt, Gerrard and Torres should have been put away, a couple of feet either side of the keeper or the post and it would have been a different matter. It was one of those days. However to suggest after this loss that Lucas was one of the main reasons or the that Alosno would have done better is so far of the mark it is laughable. The reason we drew so many games last year was when teams sat deep Alonso could not get the killer pass away because there was no space. Aquilani most probably could have made a difference, by taking players on and playing those one, two’s around the box.

So we have lost two games, the sky has not fallen in we need to pick our selves up, get on a run, most importantly sharpen up and take our chances it is a long way to go before May. I still think we are playing and looking better as a team then we did this time last year. Yes we got the results, winning ugly that so many people criticized, this year we have not done that. It still along way to go and every other team will go through a bad patch lets hope we are getting ours out of the way up front.

ARRRRGHHHH!

I just wrote a big reply there Keith. I sent it and lost it because the bloody thing had logged me out again. Why does that keep happening in here? It’s doing it a lot – logging me out of here for no bloody reason.

But anyway, I haven’t got time to rewrite it now. So, I’ll just say this and get back to you later… Keith, I’d like to say you misread my post, but you never. I just didn’t make it clearly enough.

But I’ve got to go, so I’ll just say this for now…
Lucas is not ready to boss the midfield in a title winning team.

That’s not to say he’s crap and won’t one day be able to fill that role. He’s just not ready yet.

In fact, there’s 2 young men at Anfield who have far too much responsibility, pressure and expectancy heaped upon them right now – that’s Lucas and Torres.

Rafa rightly pointed out that the senior professionals should shoulder the blame for last night’s defeat. Well, I hope he includes himself on that list, and I haven’t got time to go into it all right now. And there’s certainly nothing to panic about yet, but something has to be done.

Sorry to leave that hanging like that, especially after opening a huge can of worms. But all I can say is, I’ll get back later.

FUCKING LOG OUT…. ARRRGGGHHHH!

Dossena and Babel should of played on the flanks.Degen is at the club for a year and hasn’t played 1 second in the prem.The bloke is 27!!.Villa played 3 centre halves and got away with it because Liverpool had no width.Reminded me of the last 2 seasons under Houllier, play the ball through the middle and hope for the best.Torres was given no support and received the ball 20 yards out with his back to goal.Lucas and Masher doesn’t work-give Spearing a game, he couldn’t be any worse.Guillem Balague says the club credit card is maxed out.

Where are we now?

To say that last night was just another bad day at the office is just myopic…Xabi’s departure futher expose our weaknesses.

We have a pretty rigid system, when we play it well and it works it looks good but then we play the same way and it looks dreadful. Everybody used to complain Arsenal had no Plan B – do we?

Torres up front against a big defence in a cluttered penalty area is going to be tough – all the draws last season…We have one brilliant striker but no affective second. We had little width and Rafa’s strange silence on this front again showed last night when on came Babel instead of Reira…why bring on another player who comes inside….more congestion in an already congested area? Rafa likes flexible players like Babel and Kuyt to fit an inflexible system.

The midfield now looks very exposed – in Masch and Lucas we dont have great ball players and Gerrard is caught in between attack and mid. Benny I like, although he had a poor game he was looking for passes and movement, but he’s not the playmaker or winger we need.

More importantly we look static and low in morale! When you see utd or chelsea play…or God, you could even accuse Tottenham!! they vary the attacks all the time…some direct, some counter and some slow and methodical
Last night we slowed the play down all the time and its so frustrating – where are our speed players that react quickly and change the pace? Torres, yes, but Kuyt frustrates the piss out of me when he gets the ball, stops, turns and breaks the play down – he has pace and effort but not to get around defenders.

Given that another 10 teams so will come to Anfield and play the same way – where’s the Plan B? Flexibility, width, 4-4-2, Speed?

I hope Aqualina is the player we hope he is…

Thanks Donald.

I could not get a chance to read every line of other’s post but a few things to clarify.

@FS

Your point about targeting Nando is absolutely correct. He is being targeted by opposition defenders. I just want to clarify on my opinion since in my last post i named him as one of the player who according to me could not keep the ball on some occasions which led to Villa breaking away.

FS,what i wanted to say is Torres getting disturbed with defenders is actually hurting us. The referee needs to do his job but at the same time, Torres needs to stop reacting everytime to a foul. What is happening as a result is the defenders are doing it even more. They seem to think that it is his weakness. Thats all wat i wanted to say.

@ All

There is no reason to panic. The fact of the matter is Aston Villa,Manchster City,Tottenham will take points against the ‘BIG FOUR’. So the league champions taking their tally to even 86 points this term will be difficult.

Thats my view. Surely we need to start winning having lost twice now..but after what i saw yesterday against a very good defense of Aston Villa.. i am sure we will score lot of goals this season and we will draw games on less occasions.

Hi gang,

A fine debate indeed.

For me we looked dangerous when Insua and Johnson attacked. A fairly obvious thing to say but we scored from Insua hitting the by-line (the only time he did it) and Johnson nearly scored and created a good chance as well. That’s when we had pace and really unsettled Villa.

That’s my point. More of the same please.

I was scared we would draw the game and wake up the liverpool-draw-too-many-games pundits. How ironic will it be when we come second, 3 points adrift and the experts go – only if Liverpool had managed to convert 3 of their 9 losses to draws. I should be a pundit.

YNWA

its truly amazing how some people know exactly what we should have done……. after the game. We were not that bad last night,infact we played pretty good football for the most of it. We simply didnt get the rub of the green,if benny would have converted in the first minute we may well have seen another white wash. I was hoping that a few of those chances wouldnt come back to haunt us but thats football and last night they did.
Lets not forget the manc(scum-fucks) had three points after three games last season and went on to win the league. I’m actually glad we’re getting our bad start outta the way because make no mistake about it the other teams are going to get injurys an drop points to. So lets weather the storm and get ready for a fantastic unbeaten run that were gonna embark on.

Well said Roarin-Red we did not play that badly last night, we varied the attack some slow build-up because they where lying deep and we broke quickly when we could. We could just not score and we should have, on any given day it could have been so different and that will happen to every team. Any one of Gerrard’s shots, Kuyts headers and shots, Benny the same, Torres the same and we would not be debating whether Masch and Lucas can boss the midfield. They can boss the midfield against the Mancs in a 4-1 demolition, because we took our chances. Last night we did not. At one point we had more than 76% position, what more do you want from a midfield

Every chance we hit, went straight at the keeper or hit the post or was just wide. This happens, it happened last year with Alonso when we created loads of chances but did not convert, hence all the draws, remember hitting the bad 5 times at Spurs? With Johnson and Insua on the flanks we are creating better chances against packed defenses our goal scores just did not convert last night.

I agree if we had taken those early chances and Torres’s dragged shot he should have scored and Gerrards follow up he should have scored and it would have turned into a route.

sorry bar at Spurs

I only watched the game on the telly in the pub, but last night after about 15 minutes you could feel the crowd go flat, and not long after that you could almost feel the anxiety coming out of the screen.

You can blame out of towners, corporates, tourists, whatever. But this is what you get from an MTV generation reared on TV highlights of football. There is no attention span. There is no real understanding of the game. It’s been steadily growing for years, but it’s now reaching such bad proportions that it’s seriously affecting players on the pitch.

People now go to football expecting/demanding to be entertained. They have no real sense of support, and when there hasn’t been a goal – preferably from a overhead kick from 35 yards – within the first 10 minutes their heads go down, they lose attention, and then they start to grumble and moan. And make no bones about it, this transfers itself on to the pitch.

Look at the few minutes of football at the beginning of the second half, when the crowd got behind the team. The level of play also went up a notch. But once that didn’t produce a flying scissor kick from goal from the half way line, well, in truth, once Villa broke out of their own half, the noise turned to moans again.

Are LFC fans the worse for this… well, no worse than Chelsea, Arsenal or the Mancs. But certainly worse than the likes of Stoke or Pompey, where there is no real expectation and only die hard locals attend.

We also have the added pressure of wishing so much for number 19 and the Mancs now breathing down our necks to reach it first. And I could go on about this for an age, but I want to keep it in context. So…

This pressure is far too much to heap on Lucas. He also has the added pressure of replacing Xabi, and the other modern day phenomenon of the football fan… The need to have a scapegoat.

But like I said earlier, what does Rafa do about it?

Pull Lucas for awhile?

Well, that can go a few ways…
1: Work.
2: Put even more pressure on the kid, wreck he’s confidence, prove his scapgoaters right, and set him up to fail when he returns.

And I could come up with more scenarios, but we need to find an answer.

Well, it’s Bolton up next, and they are already under pressure themselves. More importantly, so is their manager, Megson. So, having looked at the start we’ve made and seeing the problems we’ve had so far, I think he’s going to have only one order to give his team…
Get out there and rough them up. Don’t let them settle. Get right in their faces and press them constantly from start to finish.

So, again, what does Rafa do?

Obviously he knows better than me, but if I had to make the decision now on the little info I’ve got…
Pull Lucas. Get Gerrard back next to Masch, but with orders to get forward. Get Benayoun in behind Torres and get Riera on the left. Go with the experience and steady the ship.

Reina

Johnson
Carragher
Skrtle
Insua

Masch
Gerrard

Kuyt Riera

Benny

Torres.

I’m only saying this as a quick fix to problems we have seen this season. Once the results come in and the points start to build, the confidence will come back and we can but Lucas back in when needed and leave Torres up top on his own with Gerrard playing off him. But right now, I think the burden is proving too much for Lucas and Torres and they need more support.

Of course Agger and Aqualini will also solve a lot of this. And if we had owners who didn’t keep robbing our money, it wouldn’t even be a question. But right now, the ship needs steadying.

This isn’t some kneejerk reaction. It’s an opinion what might help solve some of our current problems. But what the fuck do I know compared to Rafa. So, therefore, I’ll back him on what he thinks is right. And if that means keeping the team exactly how it is and trying to play our way out of this, then so be it.

PS, Keith that wasn’t the reply I wrote earlier and lost. This bloody computer is logging me out of the site everytime I close it down, not remembering me and I have to sign back in every time I post.

No big deal, but a pain in the arse when I forget that, write a post, especially a long serious one, and then lose it because I haven’t signed in.

But anyway, like I said earlier, I think I wasn’t clear enough in what I said, but I hope you see what I’m saying now.

FS I am not too sure pulling Gerrard back to play in the midfield will help players find the back of the net. We played like that for 30 minutes and were no better off creating chances than when Gerrard was pushed up next to Torres, we just did not have our shooting boots on, chances we were creating, but just not taking. I thought shape wise, formation and as a team we played well enough for the beginning of the season. Past the ball around looked a decent unit. Yes there where loads of misplaced passes trying to force one into a crowed area as they sat deeper and deeper, but Lucas was not the culprit, in fact he was one of the best distributors on the night and not just sideways as some would like to suggest. We missed a few sitters that we should have taken and could have been 2-0 up within 10 minutes, different game then. How many times have you seen Torres bury a header he hit straight at the keeper or scuff a shot the way he did, the same with Gerrards effort in the second half and the sitter he hit straight at the keeper with 6 minutes on the clock, he knows what a big difference that would have made you could see it on his face. Kuyt, hit the post, went wide of the post and so on, yet you want us to believe it was because Lucas cannot boss the midfield and Torres had an off night. Well Benny, Kuyt and Gerrard also had an off night in front of the sticks. Yes as clichéd as it might sound it was a bad day at the office and I have seen the push on Vorinon in the box given very similar to the Spurs one. We can go on but it was not meant to be and looking for scape goats (I know you are not, this is in general for a lot of other people) it is easy to pick on Lucas, but it is still wrong. The way people go on you would think they expect him to defend, boss the midfield and score the goals all at the same time. They probably won’t be happy if he did that as well.

Keith,

Fatty is well able to speak for himself but i think (one) of the points he’s trying to make with Bolton in mind is the sheer physicality of their challenge. That is not (in my opinion) a strong side of Lucas, and ,man for man Stevie would have more presence in the middle. He would as long as he concentrated that is and of course he wouldn’t give away any silly free kicks in dangerous area … ever, now would he !! (Joke ok !)
It might shake Stevie up a little as well. Contray to most people I like the fact he comes hunting the ball deeper. It makes him more difficult to mark and also keys him into the game more. I feel, at times, he’s disconnected from the game. Pulling him deeper, giving him “more to do” may work very well for his head. Also I think it’s worth trying Benny in a free role, he is a menace to the defense because he is skillful and unpredictable and takes guys on.
Having Stevie and Nando playing close together kind of wraps the team’s power, threat and pace into one nice neat package for opposing teams to smother.
I’ll keep hammering away on my own little drum here. It’s a team mental change that has to take place to cover the loss of Xabi. The whole team has to evolve and if we can manage it then we’ll be better than last year.
One final point for now. We last the League last year not because we lost too many games but because we drew way too many. I don’t mind a loss now and again if we pick up and win a few more.

Keith mate, you are missing my point now though.

I know we could have won that by a landslide. But I tell you what I also knew, after that Keystone Cops moment in the area, I turned to me mate and said, “This could get dodgy.”

And like I said earlier, I stayed out of here since early Sunday morning as I didn’t want to say something that would start the stampede for the panic button.

But I’ll say this again… Lucas is not ready to relied on week in week out in a team that wants to win the title.

I’ve said it plenty of times. So, I don’t know why that translates into anything else. It is simple as this… I have no problem when Lucas has to go in there. He can do the job. Yes. Just like he did it against the Mancs. And like he did against Newcastle, when, despite all the great performances of last season, we probably played our best footy of the season.

I have that sort of confidence in the lad and Rafa’s judgement. But the thing is, I don’t think he can be relied upon to do it week in week out.

And even though I know he wasn’t the main culprit last night. I think we would have performed better if we had played the team/formation I put up in me last post.

Yes. It’s hindsight that great thing that always has 20/20 vision. And yes, we could have had a hatfull last night.

But the fact of the matter is, we never, we dropped 3 points and that leaves questions to be asked and decisions to be made.

Obviously, I will back Rafa whatever he decides. There’s no other choice. But I’ll also ask questions when I think they need raising and I’ll try to think of a solution.

And right now, I think the best solution is to go with the team/formation I posted. I take in what your saying, but I still think that.

Experience and cool heads will be needed at Bolton. They haven’t got the players, or skill level, of Spurs or Villa. But that could make it even worse, and they will probably batter into us and stay at it from the off.

And I could be completely wrong, but I can easily see that game being a very hard battle that will be won in the last ten minutes when legs start to tire. And if that’s the case, I think the team/formation I posted will be better suited to the job than the ones we played last night…
More support for Torres up front. More experience and physical prescence in the center of the park.

FS, u have pointed two players in liverpool having great expectations.. well i wud say there are three…I know its a long shot at the moment, but i was wondering, exactly how much pressure of expectations will be on Aqualini once he returns from his injury …. Will he b able to cope up with that pressure … He is new to this league and will definitely need some time to settle in … i dont see easy times for us reds … We already are having trouble wid our midfield and i just hope aqualini turns out to be the “DIRECT REPLACEMENT” for alonso …

I agree with FS that lucas is yet not ready for the role in the midfield for a team thats pushing for the title … I tried making the same point about babel and lucas that they arent up to teh quality even after having a decent go for last couple of seasons …

Where is Kopking when we need him the most?

One impression from the match: I know Babel can be frustrating, but I’d surely rather see him subbed on before Voronin. While The Insipid Ponytail knows his spacing and plays intelligently, he does not have the quickness or athletic ability to be a threat (let alone finishing touch.) I will say that Babel’s floated ball to the back post that Kuyt made a hash of was a thing of beauty – and an unexpected one from Ryan. He seemed to be focusing on making the intelligent play yesterday in his brief time on the pitch, and if he can ever find a way to mix that in with agressiveness and his unquestionable natural ability, he could come good yet.

I’m sorry I even got into this. Like I said, earlier I stayed out for a couple of days because I knew people were setting themselves up for a fall as the predictions were getting ridiculous, and the scenarios being dreamt up where even worse….
We’ll win this game, that game, and the other game, by this many goals.
The Mancs will lose here, there and everywhere by this many goals.

Bollacks. That sort of thing should be kept for the fantasy league.

The facts are we’ve played 3, Won 1, Lost 2.

Not the greatest of starts, but it doesn’t mean we won’t the league. The only point I was making was simple enough. In fact, if you think about it properly, I’m actually sticking up for Lucas. It’s too much responsibility and expectation being heaped upon the lad.

As for Aquilani, I don’t think he’ll be under the same sort of pressure. People will give him a bit of slack and those who don’t aren’t worth listening to anyway.

But from all I hear, the lad is brilliant. He’s viewed in Rome/Italy to be a Kaka type of player and he’s hoped to be the next great Italian. I obviously hope they’re right, but, as always, we’ll have to wait and see.

Rafa is already getting slatted for buying a “Crock.” But the fact is, Rafa bought the best possible player he could find for the job Lucas is doing and Xabi vacated. He also got him rather cheap because he is injured and Roma needed the dough. So it wasn’t a stupid move as the media and, sadly some of our own fans, are trying to say it is.

But obviously the problem is, the lad won’t play for at least another six weeks or so and he might need time to adjust. But that’s not always true.

He might just slot right in, and perform from day one. And, finally having the operation to put him right that Roma wouldn’t give him the time for, he might well stay fit for the rest of the season and be the missing link that drives us on to number 19.

But we need immeadiate answers and points on the board. If Rafa goes with the same team and formation, then fine. I’ll believe that’s the best option available to us. But if he does shake it up a bit, I’ve already said what I think our best option would be.

And I know both Rafa and Lucas think Lucas is ready for the job. So, I’ll accept that but I also happen to think playing the team/formation I picked could stop us from burning out both Torres and Lucas too early in the season.

You don’t have to agree, but think about it… it’s an awful lot of expectation they are carrying.

FS, you make a solid theoretical argument. Is the lad a world beater? Not yet for sure. But I think we should judge his performances, rather than his history or this idea that we can Champ Manager replace the lad with some mythical Kaka-clone for 2 million from somewhere? (and yes I know that wasn’t YOUR point.)

Lucas is a young lad and obviously, Xabi’s boots are big to fill… though I would argue to all that you look at the way we’ve been lining up and playing… we aren’t playing the same way we did with Alonso… its a different set-up (as you predicted FS)… something too complicated for the SkySpotrs generation to pick up on methinks?

In theory, as I was attempting to explain to Digger earlier, I would agree that SG is a stonger CM than hole player and so I wouldn’t necessarily be against the idea… the problem I have is that its one thing to theorize that Lucas can’t be relied on to boss the midfield week in, week out… but the reality is that he has done just that for 3 games on the trot.

Our problem has not been in NOT creating enough chances… its been in putting them away… the same old story for several seasons really.

I would agree that vs. Bolton, it might not be a bad idea to drop SG back into CM, and put Benny in the hole… but do we need a Buldogg against Bolton? I’d drop Masch for that game not Lucas.

But then you have to consider the game plan, which is (or should be) to get Johnson and Insua forward …and that is where Masch is invaluable, protecting the remaining back 3.

Its a tough call… but I wouldn’t drop Lucas … not yet. (we’re trying to build his confidence so we can rely on him and we drop him after he nets an own goal… hardly a recipe for improving the lad’s confidence?) The lad has been doing his job, and doing it well… others have dropped the ball.

Aside from that, I like your line-up FS. I think we need to stick to more or less the same players and let them reestablish the norm… that being a good result for, rather than against

Of course, what Rafa will do is anyone’s guess.
And not because he’s stubborn as some would like to have you believe, but because he knows more about footy than all of us in here combined!

How fuckin ACE would it be to sit across a pub table from this man with a pint or two and discuss footy theory with him?
I just soiled meself thinking about it… must go clean up

Rafa should stick with the same players.

Aitch mate, like I said, it’s a dilema that only Rafa can solve.

Is Lucas to blame for the 2 defeats. Not at all. Rafa went to pains to point that out and defend the lad, by saying senior professionals have to carry their part of the blame. But what did the media make of that… Of course they said Rafa was pubically slatting Gerrard and Carra and it was a disgraceful thing to do.

And you lads who know me for some time, know the only thin thing about me is me skin whenever LFC, the club, the players and the manager come under attack for no reason. So, you also know that I’m only having a discussion, putting forward ideas, and in no way slatting anyone/thing of ours. And so…
What would damage Lucas’s confidence more, a rest or having a mare in the next game – especially after today’s slatting in the media?

One of my fears when Xabi left was that it might mean us bringing Gerrard back and breaking up the partnership with Torres. I said that a few times, and I’m certainly not advocating it now.

What I’m saying is, in the next game – a very tough physical test, away from home – we might be better served by putting Lucas on the bench, dropping Gerrard into the role Rafa has marked up for Aqualini, and putting Benny in the hole behind Torres.

Having said that, I thoroughly agree that the full backs have to get forward as much as possible and they have to provide more width. That’s why I’d also play Riera, but I would still like to see them cut inside to back up Nando and Benny when Johnson and Insua get forward.

And regardless of last night’s result/performance, I think that would be far too much for Bolton to handle.

I’m saying this off the top of me head, so I don’t jump all over me if I get anything wrong, but…
As far as I can remember, Bolton have had a similar start to the season as Villa. They’ve lost both games 1-0 against Sunderland and Hull. But they’ve got a Carling Cup game against Tranmere tonight to settle their nerves, and get a confidence raising win under their belt.

But whether that happens or not, they will try to come at us like Dam Busters. So, there’s the dilema for Rafa…
Does he drop Lucas to the bench, put an arm around him, and explain why, or does he go with the same line up and hope they can put it right, and so quickly get their own confidence back?

That’s why he gets the big bucks.

PS, Aitch… I know a lad who was in the pub when Rafa got the ale in.

Didn’t get a chance to speak with him, but what a jammy bastard.

Last night’s performance was good according to me. Okay, we lost the match, but I would surely say that we didn’t deserve to. We created so many chances out of which we didn’t convert many. This being the case, I would say that the team has to work on their finishing or converting goal chances. We could have won the match if only, one out of Torres, Gerrard or Benayoun would have scored in the 6th min.

But I wouldn’t waste anytime in Ifs and Buts.

All I would like to say is that the team needs to work on set pieces and fouls. Both of Villa’s first half goals were lucky for them and unlucky for us. The first was an own goal scored by Lucas unfortunately. The second could have been stopped if our set pieces defending would have been better.

I would agree with FS on one thing though, and that is on Lucas. However, he played alright yesterday, I wouldn’t want our team’s midfield depending on an inexperienced 22 year old lad. Surely, players generally settle down at this age and if talented start showing good performances. Like Rooney and Ronaldo for example. Obviously all the players don’t tend to be as talented as these guys. That’s what the point is. Lucas is not that talented and is not at his best. And even if you guys say that he is talented, then okay, who knows better than Rafa, but surely at this stage our team should not be expecting anything if Lucas keeps playing. He can play well on his day, but I fear, when we play any of the top 4 or ManC, would we have to depend on this guy to play his best? Should we take that chance?

It would be nice, if Gerrard gets back in the midfield with Masch and creates chances for Benayoun and Torres. Riera on the left and Kuyt on the right.

Should we wait for Aquilani till Oct? Can we risk it? It’s still not too late. Only two games have been lost. We can still be in the race, if we take these certain steps. Lucas can be played in matches against bottom half sides. It’s not necessary for us to rely on him when we have players who can be better in his position. This would be only better for the team and it’s title challenge this season.

This is not my ‘I Said So’, but my view.

And KK, I hate to say it, because I want you to keep contributing, and I actually like that you haven’t knee jerked to last night’s defeat, but…

The fact is, Lucas can do the business and he can do it against the best of sides – he’s proved that before. But I’ve said enough about the lad and last night.

I want to say this though… everyone keeps going on about the chances we created last night. That’s correct.

In fact to the best of my memory the stats are 24 shots on goal. Villa had 4. Yes 4 and scored 3.

The first goal while everyone defends Lucas is still this no matter how you look at it…
Lucas gave away a needless free kick. The lad was running into our defence. He wasn’t free and on his way. And Lucas needlessly ran right across him.

He then nodded the resulting free kick into his own net while under no presure. In fact, at that moment, he was probably the most free that any players found himself in either box all night.

What is that down to? Probably a huge combination of bad luck, panic, inexperience and pressure.

“That could have happened to anyone.”
“If one had of gone in, it could have been a landslide.”
“The defence was to blame.”
“The attack had no shooting boots.”
“If me aunt had bollacks, she’d be me uncle.”

We can go through them all, but it won’t change nothing. And that also includes the fact that.. it’s not time to panic yet. We aren’t doomed. We will get the breaks that are going against us. And we will be thereabouts at the end.

I know all that. I’m just discussing ways to get it kick started right now. Maybe that is to hold steady, keep the faith, and play through it. That would be the none kneejerk thing to do.

But if that’s what Rafa decides, I hope he is ready with plan B if starts to go tits up at the Reebok.

Oh and something I’ve been meaning to say, but didn’t because I got caught up in all that…
Far more than Lucas’s performance or Torres’ complaining, I was much more upset with the way our defence got rattled and lost the plot.

Coming up to the half time whistle, I said to me mate… I wish that Ref would blow the whistle.

I knew they was rattled and they’d lost it. Pepe whingeing about a legitimate free kick, insted of organising his defence. Carra forgot his duties. Bingo… 2 – 0.

But even having said that, Pepe is still a baby for a keeper. So again, Rafa was right to defend Lucas and point out that senior players needed to take their share of the blame. They should know to hold their concentration.

Oh well, fuck it. It’s gone now. Onwards and upwards.

I watched last night’s game again and I think our problems are bigger than what’s happening in the midfield.

I think we can make a sustained challange with Lucas and Masch playing together. We’ve had enough chances to net 10 goals through our first three games instead of the six we’ve bagged. The goals will eventually come.

I like what I’ve seen from Lucas. He’s grown considerably in his time here, and he’s got what Rafa likes in his players, a good mentality. The OG was terrible, and so was the foul he committed to set up the free kick, but I thought he played quite well last night.

I’m more concerned with the rate that we’re conceding goals and the manner that it’s happening. In my mind, we’ve yet to concede a goal from “open play.” What I mean by that is 4 of the 5 goals we’ve conceded have come from a set piece. If you consider a PK a set piece, than make it 5 out of 5.

Pepe’s also had to make a few big saves to keep that number lower (Delap off a corner against Stoke comes to mind).

FS mentioned that Villa had 4 shots and scored 3 times. It’s similar to the 4-4 against Arsenal last spring; the game that truly ended our title hopes. They scored 4 goals on 4 shots.

Is the Skrtel-Carra partnership as good as we think it is? I don’t think either one of them (or Dagger) is particularly strong in the air.

We saw our title run and CL run both go up in smoke last year because we conceded too many times.

And yes, that was with the greatest player ever bossing our midfield, the man Lucas will never replace, Xabi Alonso. I love Xabi, and we will miss him, but his “legend” seems to have grown since he’s fucked off to Real Madrid.

I recall him scoring an OG at Boro last February that didn’t exactly help our title chances. If you play long enough, it’s going to happen to you.

By the way Gerry, let’s get a new blog out. I’m looking at the title of this one, “Roller Coaster Reds”, and I’m thinking it foreshadowed our performance. A little bad Karma, so to say.

Why don’t you title the one for Bolton something along the lines of “Ass Kicking Reds” and inspire us all with confidence.

Sorry for hogging the blog, and going over the same thing over and over, but…
Ivjmac, you make good points but then ruin it with a bit of sarcasm.

I don’t think anyone has gone about the “Legend of Xabi, the greatest ever player bossing our midfield.”

In fact, I don’t really think anyone has gone about Xabi that much. I know I haven’t, but seeing it’s put out there…
We have lost a great player, who, besides everything else he contributed, was an absolute magnet for fouls and yellow/red cards.

He has been replaced by a kid who still makes rash tackles and gives away free kicks in very dangerous positions.

But let’s get this straight… that’s not to say, even the most experienced of footballers don’t fuck up like that.

If you look back, I have already said, that is proven fact by even just Gerrard’s silly tackle that gave away the penalty last night.

And there’s lots of other factors that can keep this going on and on and round and round forever.

But the bottom line is… Is Lucas ready to play in the role he has been given?

To my mind, even though I know he can do it when called upon or needed, he is definetely not up to being the main man in there just yet.

And I also think it wouldn’t be right to leave the kid in there, and, therefore, open to all the flak he will get whenever anything goes wrong.

FS – as you say that’s why Rafa gets paid the bobs.
Perhaps it’s not going to be either Lucas or Gerrard but both. You made a comment about hoping Rafa has a good plan B ready. Well that could be the very thing. We have to prepared to be able to change tactics and shape in the game.

In fact we have, though it hasn’t actually worked with the eventual scorelines. In both of the games we played there was considerable changes made. Voronin on, Gerrard back, Benny roving vs Spurs and all the changes made last night.

You know if I were to make a guess I don’t think Rafa is gonna make those changes we’ve been chatting about. I mean how often has he pulled Gerrard back and put Benny “in the hole” ? That also means Benny is off the wing where Rafa has him placed now for ages. Nope I’m guessing not. Not as a starter situation.

Mind you I would. That would mean Mascher/Lucas. I would go for Mascher, because that fastens the defense and really opens the wings up to the full-backs to bomb on.

First goal is very important next weekend. psychologically it will boost us up and force Bolton out which will suit us.

But hey i’m on the armchair, easy for me.

Right lads, great discussion and I am happy to see no jerking of the knees.

With regards to last night’s match, I thought that, in general, we played well and moved the ball around with purpose but the finishing was not there. We shot ourselves in the foot, as well, with some of our defending and this is something that we need to address – BTW good post on this lvcjmac.

On top of this, Villa defended well and took their chances, so fair fucks to them! Basically it was one of them matches can have ended 3-1 either way.

Regarding Lucas, I thought he played very well last night but, for me, whether he should remain in the starting XI is not down to the next few matches but how Rafa plans to incorporate the Aquaman into the team.

If it is at the expense of Lucas, then we should make the switch now. If not, then I think we should persist with him.

Not easy to predict but the big call is who will Aquaman be replacing in our first XI? Onion or Lucas or someone else?

Well, I’m done for the day, but thought it best to leave with this…
I think this season is going to be very open, and I’m looking forward to it all unfolding. Who will win it?

Well, at the moment it’s still anyone’s for the taking. But come the end of it, we will be in there fighting for it.

Last word… I, and I think I can speak for Digger to, would like nothing better than to see Lucas in there, pulling the strings, doing the business, and lifting the trophy in May.

Night. Night.

Agreed Fatty.

What the fuck is the craic with that liverpool kop website,them fuckin wankers should be ashamed of themselves. I hadnt seen many websites for our team or other teams for that matter and when i heard people in here talk about us getting a hard time from our own supporters i thought it may have been a bit on an over-reaction. Starting to get a good grasp as to where the boo’s are coming from at anfield. FUCKIN IDIOTS!!!

I´ve been thinking about this for a while. I didnt have a brain storm or anything its been suggested before but with all the bashing of Rafa, Lucas and our midfield I have seen on the web got me thinking. Alot of people are saying Rafa should have bought a different midfielder then Aquaman. He knew that Aqua wouldnt be fit until October, match fit mid to late November. Could it be that Rafa had planned on getting another player in aswell but got shafted by the Yanks? Be it another midfielder or wingman or forward. I think Rafa is taking alot of slack for those Cunts and the media and supporters are just turning a blind eye to it all.

FS-I just threw the Xabi sarcasm in to get my point across that we struggled with him in our lineup as well. We lost 2 and drew 8 with him in our lineup last season. That’s 22 dropped points.

We will miss his leadership at times but that ship has already sailed and we’ve got to get behind the lads we have.

The point to keep in mind with Lucas is that we don’t need him to pull the strings for us all season; we just need to rely on him and Masch until Aqualini can play in October. Once we have Aqualani healthy Rafa will have options at his disposal at CM.

Masch is one of my favorite players but I’m wondering why he seems to be immune to criticism and Lucas gets it all. His passing is often poor and I’m sure I’m not the only one that screams at my telly everytime he lets a shot rip from 35+ yards.

roarin-red – liverpool-kop are either :
1. manc supporters
2. know less about football than the average espn commentator
3. total and complete morons with lower IQ’s than a rock

stay away from the site – they are prob. being deliberately controversial just to boost hits and thus ad revenue…

3 points from 3 games sucks, but we only took 4 points from those same three fixtures last year.

I don’t think 90 points is needed to win the league this season. I think the total will be around 85.

What’s going to make things interesting is that both Citeh and Spurs don’t have the distraction of Europe to deal with. I rate both of them to contend this season in spite of their managers. I can’t picture either of them winning the league or cracking into the top 4, but they will take points off of our other rivals.

They should be able to play their best 11 every week unless they happen to go on a long cup run. That’s a luxury none of the big 4 have.

I notice the debate is turning to Benny playing in Gerrards spot. Benny is very good when he arrives and utilises his trickery and guile against tiring defenders. Other than that he mostly gets snapped up or loses the ball through weak tackling, when the defenders are fresh.
.
Benny reminds me of our very own Mitchell Johnson (Aussie Cricketer), gives away shit loads of runs but then takes a wicket. Hence we forgive his wastefullness because he gets wickets. Benny is very wasteful but gets goals which means we forget his overall play. He is great as an impact player, that’s all.
.
Ps what’s happened to Riera is he injured.
.
Also back to Lucas, as I stated Lucas made a wonderful break down the field after a two footed twist to win the ball, ran 60 yards before making the mistake of giving it to Kuyt, who then lost it leaving Lucas 60 yards from anywhere he should have been. Kuyt isn’t 23 but makes blunder after blunder, however we forgive him because of his incredible workrate. Lucas on the other hand (what the fuck is he doing up there)
.
Lucas is a fine player but he’s young and the older players need to take the pressure of him, not him take the pressure of them.

Just read this and it caught me by surprise. Only 3 members of our sqaud have won a medal for Liverpool.

Gerrard, Carra, and Pepe Reina.

That means two things:

1. Rafa has turned this squad over in a short amount of time.

2. It’s been a while since our last trophy (2006 FA Cup). Hopefully we’ll see a couple this year?

Lvcjmac to answer your mascherano question http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3A2-yEqxp8&feature=related
FS Yes i lived about 1/2 mile from him and still do i think he was a bit eccentric
but his cat’s eyes saved a lot of lives. I once met “Crazy Horse ” himself, now
that was amazing.
Dougle Just how many needles did this acupuncture involve because those
tablets didn’t work for long.

Just a wee aside from Liverpool, did anyone see the Carling Cup tie tonight Swansea v Scunthorpe? Swansea finished with 7 men (3 sent off 1 injured) and the match could have been abandoned as another of their players was injured but was forced to go back on.

Crazy stuff.

Terrific discussion today lads… pity I had to actually get some work done today and couldn’t get back in here.

Many valid points made, and well supported.

Aahhhh… to be a Red on the way to Number 19!
Priceless!

Roarin-Red (#166). Mate, thats why i have a link straight to Gerry’s blog so i can avoid the over BS going on.

Well went to bed nice an early, nodded straight off, got up for a pee, as us aul fellas do, and can’t get back to sleep. The joys of middle age, eh KK.

And I know I’ve done it to death, but I’ve got bugger all else to do until it’s time to wake up the birds, and I can’t think of anything else to talk about so…

Does anyone remember last night when I think it was Gerrard, pinged a ball to Lucas with far too much pace on it and the lad just deflected it by turning his foot, putting his instep on it, and placing it right between 2 Villa players, and directly into Kuyt’s path?

It was a brilliant little moment. And it was no fluke. That’s the sort of thing the lad is capable of, and considering he’s still a kid, he’s already very good at keeping the game moving like that.

But, and sorry to say this again, but at 22 he’s just not ready to be doing that job on a full time basis. Having said that though, I just read Bolton’s write up… they won 1 – 0 at Tranmere, and it could have been more. But it seems they still struggled. So, I won’t be too concerned if Rafa stands by Lucas, which I think he will anyway.

And I’ve just clocked there’s an old Leeds v Galatasaray UEFA Cup game on. It must be the one when the Leeds fans got murdered. But I’m gonna watch it anyway. It’s when Leeds were good and Hagjhi is playing for Gala. Could never spell that fella’s name, but there’s someone I’d have loved to have seen bossing our midfield. What a player that lad was.

That wasn’t the only little flash of completely inept and talentless footy from the lad either FS.

Which is why I’ve stuck to what I said. On the basis of the last 3 games, he HAS bossed the midfield.
Whether he can do that for a whole seaosn is up for debate, for sure… as you say…
…but right now, play the lad, maybe he’ll net one at the right end (he’s almost gotten on the end of a few moves in the last 3 games) and wouldn’t that see a lilting violet bloom… or some such gay thing?

FS, I’m having the problem with being logged out without actually logging out, but the other problem I’m having is this, as the blog replies get more and more, the typing speed in the comment box gets slower and slower. So much so in the last blog, we got to around 400, so I could type a whole sentence with nothing on the screen the whacko up she comes in one splash.

I thought that was a problem I was having on my end…. not that I’m prone to having problems on my end you understand… my end works just fine….

glad to know its TIA and not me.
(taps foot, twiddles fingers, waits, waits… bang , there it is… send!)

Can Lucas cut it in this formation?

Am sorry, but me is with the ‘nay’ group here.

And i also agree taht its better to move Stevie G down to his once proclaimed prefered role in the centre of midfield.

Yossi to play in hole.

Whilst slightly off the topic of Lucas. Is it fair to say that everyone in here had some more optimism in our potential transfer dealings after the sale of players (in particular alonso)?

Dumb and Dumber have pissed me off! Even though we had a large inflow of money from sales + transfer budget, we only managed to acquire Aquilani (who i think will be a great player).

I was in the category of allowing Alonso to go if we got adequetly compensated, as we virtually did, but now we are skint. Fucking does my head in.

FS or Gerry, any further news on the tarsnfer side of things. Whilst i hate speculating and reading bs tabloids, its interesting to know what could be happening.

Am I right in saying that Riera was on the bench on Monday night? As for transfers, unless for some divine intervention and the yanks loosen the purse strings, I think our business is done for the moment

Interesting natter going on lads.Some good points.

I think Rafa will do what he thimks is best for the side against whatever opposition he has.

Saying that,IMHO i`d go with the team FS posted a while back with benny in the hole against Bolton.

Bolton being at home will not “park the bus” completely and should have some sort of a go.With Gerrrard playing through midfield and Mash giving him protection,we could break in numbers and speed with SG,Riera,kuyt,benny and Torres plus suport from the full backs.

If we then establish a lead,say 2-0,then Lucas could come on and help us hold on to that lead by keeping possesion and working hard with mash in front of the back four.

I know it ain`t as simple as that but thats the line up i`d go with for this particular game.
I`ve nothing against lucas here i just think for this game i`d go with more pace in our midfield.

I do agree with Aitch that lucas has played well in the first 3 games and the critisism is unfair.It`s gone like that now.If the reds lose or drop points,blame Lucas.

If Lucas isn`t playing?Blame Lucas anyway.

If world war 3 starts..blame Lucas.

It`s in fashion.

I am all for defending our own players – and extent blaming Lucas for all our current ills is simplistic. I for one think he has improved and may well improve further (given the time). However as someone mentioned in one of the earlier posts in this thread – his position is just too important for a player who is still clearly developing to be in a team that has high expectations to win the Premier League. I’ll put it in simple terms – Lucas wouldn’t get into Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, City’s first team. He just isn’t of the required quality. I don’t think anyone would disagree with me on this. But seeing as we have no current alternative (other than dropping Steve G into midfield) I really hope he proves me wrong

I would stray with the same formation but bring Reira on for Benny to give us more width. People mention the physicality of Bolton well that will affect Benny as well. We can then use Benny and Babel as impact players in the second half when tired legs lead to more space being available.

The goal conceded from the corner was really down to Torres blowing his cover and turning away trying to protect his eye, not that you can blame him the way he has bee battered. Our defense is very solid and yes we concede more from set pieces than open play but we still have won the golden glove award more often than not and concede less than most. The defense has ben jittery but we have walking wounded out their, Carr stitches, Skertal cracked jaw and Torres stitches all this does not enhance our heading ability when defending set pieces. So yes slightly unfortunate at this point. I also agree attacking the ball in the air has never been one of our strongest points even way back in the Wimbledon and boring Arsenal days of Donkey Adams and co we where poor.

With regards to the Lucas debate the old adage is if you are good enough you are old enough and until Aquilani is fit he is our best option for now in that attacking forward role that we are playing, linking up play and surging forward to creat more space. He gets forward, he creates, he very seldom gives the ball away so unless we have a better option I would stick with him

I don’t believe in breaking up the Gerrard, Torres partnership as that was the fulcrum of our challenge last year and we need to keep them together and get them to start clicking, which at the moment they are not and that is part of our problem in our two losses, not our midfield play.

Ask ManU supporters who they would rather have Anderson (15 mill) or Lucas. Would you take Scholes, Giggs (on their last legs) Hargreaves (makes Degen look fit) or Fletcher. The only one you have a case for is Carrick and I think he is over rated. At Chelsea do you think Obi One is significantly better, Ballack is more of a goal threat but at 32 with many years of international experience you would expect that, Essien is world class and probably the best defensive midfielder (Masch included) in the world? Deco and Lampard are all in their 30’s with tons of international experience so it is unfair to compare. Arsenal is difficult to call because they have an over abundance of attacking midfielders and their problem is defensive midfielders. City, is Barry that much better than Lucas, more experienced yes, but where Barry has reached his peak and will go the other way Lucas is still improving. Would you swap the two right now? Rafa obviously did not try too hard to bring Barry in this time around, even with the rumors of Alonso wanting to leave, he opted for Aquilani and that tell you a thing or two.

KeithSA: – I have asked Man Utd followers about Anderson Vs Lucas – they laughed at me. As for all your other examples – yeah I do think all those players are either more experienced or are better players. Look, if we’re talking about winning the league THIS year – we’ll need a stonger midfield than we’re currently fielding. That’s not bashing Lucas – its just saying that Mascherano and Lucas combo will not prevail. So I think a re-jig is required until we get Aqualani fit and up to speed.

When is Aquaman due to play?

I heard that when he moved to Liverpool he wasnt completely injured but already in the rehab/strenghtening/pre-season fitness part of his recovery.

4-8 weeks was the word when he joined. So to get match fit and all that – you’re looking at early October

That fucking Digger…. Starts all this, then does one the pub, laughing, and steers clear till the dust settles.

Arsing about aside, if you look at my comments, I don’t really disagree with anything anybody has said in the defence of Lucas, and not once have I slatted the slatted. I’ve made the simple observation that, at 22, and his size, he just isn’t ready to be relied upon to run the midfield in any team that wants to win the title.

I see nothing wrong in saying that, and I stand by it. And if you lads could see the arguments I’ve had with people – including our own fans – over the lad – you’d know I’m not one of those idiots who just bash him as he’s the current scapegoat. In fact, I got into a bit of an argument at half time at Spurs with a Liverpool fan who was slatting the lad.

Sadly, for about the last 10 years it’s became a tendency to have a scapegoat and it’s a growing problem. I’ve said this before but, it’s now said that 75% of the population “Support” a football team. And the game no longer belongs to the likes of us. The hype, Sky, The Prem, it’s turned it into a celebrity driven global entertainment business. The days of it belonging to the working class man have long gone.

It’s like the pictures or the theatre now, and at the match you see more and more families and tourists, and fellas with their birds, who then spend the match, fixing their make up, reading magazine’s about celebrities and calling their girl friends – and that’s only the fellas. The women are worse.

So all that results in people with less and less knowledge of the actual game invading it more and more. They also read all the bullshit in the papers, listen to Talk Shite all day, and flock on to the phone ins, spouting the shite they have heard and read. It’s a contagious disease an all. It’s spreading faster and faster and the clubs actually promote it. They don’t want the traditional fan, who buys a ticket, a programe and a pie at half time. They want the family with 2.3 children, spending 3 or 4 hundred quid a game. And as for us, well… if and when we do win the league, which we all want, it will only get worse and soon you’ll be seeing Karaoke at Anfield like they are now doing at Old Toilet.

That’s not off subject. It’s just a short explanation of why Anfield is now turning into the Emirates and getting crapper by the season. In fact, it’s something H&G are actively involved in – breaking up the hard core support, that is their opposition. They are even doing away with the couple of local fan blocks that Reclaim The Kop fought so hard to establish.

And I could go on and on about this all day long, but I’ll just say that’s why you hear boos at the team and individual players getting slatted.

And I wish you could have heard Talk Shite yesterday. It started off about Rafa “Slatting Gerrard and Carra.” Of course he done no such thing. He actually defended Lucas by saying some of the senior professionals were the ones who should shoulder the blame. It soon drifted off into the usual Rafa bashing, for any reason they could think of, truth or lies, they don’t care. In fact, the presenters whip it up, and every time someone does come on the defend Rafa and state some fact, they are cut off tout sweet and made to look stupid.

It’s just the way it is nowadays. And all you lads who know me, know it drives me mad and how defensive I get about everything LFC. So bashing Lucas is certainly not on my agenda.

The thing is, we want to win the league. We all know Rafa’s options are limited. We all know the reason’s why. And I don’t think anyone of us blames the 2 defeats on any individual – including Lucas. And I think, we all know that the games weren’t lost in midfield. Well, they was, but it up front and at the back was more of a problem. But we still have to solve it.

And lets face it… what can we do at the front or the back? It’s not as if we are loaded down with options. But still the ship needs steadying.

So, like I’ve said since the beginning of this, we have 2 options really…
1: Leave it alone and play our way out of it. (Which I think we will anyway, even if we don’t shake things up.)
2: Make changes where we can, with the players we’ve got available, in an attempt to get the team more solid and playing the type of football we are capable of.

You can make a case for either, but if I was going to change anything, I’ve said what I’d do with the options we have available.

But if we stay the same as we are, I just hope by the time Aqualani appears, Lucas isn’t completely knackered from over use and his confidence isn’t shot to bits by the hammering he will get by the media and the fans if we don’t win every game 10 nil with him scoring 12 of the goals in each game, with brilliant volley’s from the half way line… because that’s the sort of ridiculous expectation lamped on to the kid, and the only sort of thing that will stop him being the scapegoat. Well, that or the Veroninator playing week in week out.

If Aurelio stays fit he should play left midfield.Kuyt needs to play up front supporting F T.S G AQ and Masher can fill the remaining 3 midfield slots.How about playing Carra right back in some games and playing GJ RIGHT MID?.Agg and Skrtel could play as centre halves.

What an drop Kuyt? Even when Carra has refused to play right back, is too slow to play and he’s not going to exactly give us any width or flair there?

Not having a go. Just pointing things out like Aurelio is knackered. And although I like the lad when he is fit, I’d rather have Riera there and him at the back giving Insua a rest.

Nah. The only way I can see it is… we either leave things alone and get on with it, or we pull Gerrard back – and even that’s something I don’t want to really have to do, as that fuck’s our attack up.

But I still see it as the only option if we are going to shake things up.

Seriously FS I wish you would stop slating Lucas, you of all people…..(:

Burgeman do you realise you are watching football and not Rugby?

If Aurelleo stays fit…..he is injured he has to get fit before he can stay fit. Glen Johnson has been the one highlight so what do you want to do….. move him. Carra does not want to play RB what do you want to do….. play him right back.

Oh why bother.

Burgerman, jeez mate. Firstly we have Riera (Spanish international) who can play Left Mid.

Why would Carra play RB? makes no sense when GJ plays there and at RM we have Kuyt, Benny, Babel etc

Kuyt is the second best striker, it makes sense to play him where he can give Torres more support.Babel would be my first choice right midfielder but he never plays there.Riera is very hit and miss.Benny is best- floating between the forwards and midfield.

It’s like a bloody Hurricane here… Wind bending trees and rain coming down like javelins. Ahhh, the great british summer. Stuck in fucking doors again with no chance of either buggering off to work or the pub.

Keith, you wouldn’t believe it. She’s got me bloody decorating again! She rotates that fucking paint and paper more than Rafa having eplepsy. Oh the joys of being fat and fifty.

BM you got it wrong lad, but you did point our something on the up side… Aurelio, Agger and Aqualani. Wish they was all fit, but not bad to have them waiting in the wings.

We just need a bit of luck, even grind one or two scrappy one nil wins, and everything will be fine. We’ve got 35 games to go. It will turn round and other teams will drop points. There’s no need to panic yet.

It’s just that the Rafa’s options are a bit limited right now, which is strange as it usually happens after Christmas or at the end of the season. But from what I’ve been told, once Agger and Aqualani are fit, they should stay that way because they’ve finally had the operations they should have had ages ago.

So hopefully when other teams are having these problems, we’ll be going into the final stretch with all players fit and firing on all cylinders.

And assumption, but not a wild one when you consider the squads at Arsenal, Man U and Chelsea.

Heh heh nah Fatty I’m not down the pub laughing ( I wish), just flat to the mat at work. Dont know if I can accept responsibility for this debate, isnt debate organic and dosent it happen for a reason? When will we know Lucas has made it? Evolved into the player some in here already think he is? When the debates over. Arthur made a great point; would the lad start for our 3 rivals? Or spurs or city even for that matter? And thats why he shouldent start for us imo. Not in a title challenging team.

He’d start for the Mancs no problem.

And I didn’t know you was a wrestler.

Shite, totally forgot to say what I came in to say which is, at the risk of starting another monster here, gotta say I’m extremely disappointed in Rafa for releasing Nemeth out on loan for the season. The lad should be on our bench getting valuable mins where he can. When I see Voronin and Ngog on the bench and Nemeth in Greece and Pacheco in the reserves I think to myself…..ah fuck it, believe me, ya dont wanna know what I think. Anyway, disappointed. This lad should be on our bench imo, not aek’s.

Well, I can nip that one right in the bud… It’s part of the deal that got us the big hairy arsed Greek for about 30 pence in footballing terms. AEK actually wanted El Zhar, but Rafa sees El Zhar as more essential to the first team. So Rafa bartered them down to Nemeth instead as he reckons the lad will progress more with regular football for AEK instead of riding our bench.

I agree with him an all.

He would indeed Fatty, the manc reserves!

Being off-track here:
In 1982, a newspaper in Malaysia initiated the ‘People’s Live Telecast Fund’, where football fans jointly sponsored the live telecast games of the World Cup in Spain.

Maybe someone could start a ‘Liverpool Fans Player Fund’ and let Benitez decide which player to buy in the January transfer window. With so many frustrated Liverpool fans all over the world, raising 50M would not be impossible. We could all chip in 100 pounds each.

Just read in the daily mail ( i know, i know) that Johnsons on 139k a wk. Holy fuck, lets hope he keeps playing the way hes playing eh?! As for the Nemeth thing, dont agree mate. And you’ve changed your tune a bit then eh? Dident we all have the ‘Nemeth/Pacheco progression’ debate during the Summer, during which werent you pretty vociferous in your advocation of a promotion to the bench for both and starts in the carling cup? I dunno, I could be wrong but I thought that was you big fella!

I read most of the emails but to me (a simple soul) the whole issue is….Rafa sets the plan, the players MUST perform (also as a team), and they don’t!
From the games I have watched,and TV doesn’t show the whole pitch,it only follows the ball mostly and it’s not like being there. The Reds are going through a bad patch and need supporting.The oppositions are scoring more goals from fewer chances,it will right itself as the season progresses but I must admit it is hard to contain emotions and it is easier to find fault later.
Having written that,I wonder at the computer sometimes,lets face it SOME-ONE human sets the programmes!

Would Lucas get in the Manc side ? well he got in the brazil side Anderson
didn’t. Carrick seems to be hated by the mancs more than lucas is by some
of our “fans”.
Surely Nemeth playing full time in Athen’s is better than the odd 10 mins and
Carling Cup games.
Sadly as far as playing our youngsters it’s become a case of who should Rafa
throw to the wolves because that’s what it’s become. And unless something
is done to educate these kneejerk boo boy’s i cant see many talented
youngster’s wanting to sign for any English club.
YNWA

Well, Dig if you’d prefer Scholes over Lucas – cos that’s the nearest comparison in the 2 sides – you’re either in a time warp or losing the plot.

Which maybe the case, as I’ve been the one on here all summer long saying the kids aren’t ready yet. But you’re right about one thing… I’m the one who’s being going on about Pacheco, and I tell you something, we have one special player in that lad.

The nearest in style I can compare him to is Dalglish. No. He’s not some carbon copy. But oh, yes. He could be that good one day. He’s just not ready to be thrown in yet, but hopefully he will get gradually introduced over the season and get a bit more time as the season goes. Eased into the side in the way I’d be more than happy to see Lucas get used.

Oh Bugger! What have I started now.

Jack join the queue, mate. I’m still setting the clock on my Beta Max recorder and making toast in the * Track.

See… Oooops, should say 8 Track

Would he make it into another top 4 team? What a daft question.
How many of their players would you really want.

I wouldn’t take a single current Scum player, with the exception of Rooney if we’d got him as a kid and bred the petulent dickhead out of him, or Scholes if we’d got him as a kid and bred him to not be a twat and Giggs likewise) but not now. I was impressed with Anderson when they first boguht him, but really, he’s kinda shite and I’d rate Nani over him, but neither are “mythic LFC quality”

The Chavs… you can keep ‘em all bar Essien who is just a fuckin stone cold beast and Joe Cole (but again, wouild have probably needed him younger so we could breed the twat out of him) and Anelka who we had and should have kept.

Now I’ll grant you the Arse have a fair few handy lads, but I can’t help watching them and thinking that for all the flair they offer, a lot of them lack a certain “grit quality.”

Anyway, its an arbitrary argument. We don’t have any of them and we can’t have any of them. Lucas won’t go to any of them either… and not coz he isn’t good enough, but because that kind of transfer never happens, so its a pretty safe argument to trot out, knowing you can never be “proved” wrong.

Maybe Lucas can’t carry the midfield/boss the midfield for an entire season, but he certainly has done so for 3 games…

No one player is to blame for the two losses, but if you must look to blame one player for the two losses thus far… perhaps (and this is gonna open up a serious, serious shite storm) you should be looking in the direction of a certain number 23 in our back line.

Now the cat’s already out of that bag, but let me state this, before the attack dogs charge… (too late I know, coz they’ve stopped reading and are already typing)… JC is one of my personal faves, and the epitomy of everything that should be LFC, and of my first requirement for any LFC player… passion personified… but having said that, he seems to have lost his nut this season and has been charging about like a fuckin bull in a china shop.

There’s playing with your heart on your sleeve and there’s playing the way he has been in the last 3 games.
You need to keep your head while all about are losing theirs in this game and JC has NOT been doing that. Perhaps it is he that needs to be dropped for Bolton… given a rest while the Greek lad gets his boots dirty alongside the Ninja?

But I reiterate that I in no way attribute the losses to him alone … just illustrating another side to the Lucas coin.

Well big fella if your comparing Paul Scholes to Lucas Levia then……then I think this conversation has run its course. What more can one say really after that? Aye Aitch, totally daft question. Pointing out that our starting midfielder wouldent get into any 1 of our 3 competitors midfield thus highlighting a deficiency in our title challenge and a key advantage they have upon us. Just illustrating another side of the Lucas coin mate, just saying is all….but sure dont mind me, I’m daft!

As a brush Digger.

Okay, who is Man U’s comparable player to Lucas? There really is only Scholes, and though he is one of the few Manc players I have ever liked, time to hang them boots up has already been and gone.

If you think Carra has lost the plot, have a look at Scholes. It’s always a shame to watch a once great athelete in any sport when they are hanging on after their time. Scholes is a complete and utter liability to them now. And even in his prime he couldn’t tackle any better than Lucas does now.

But if you are comparing Scholes in his hey day with Lucas, besides it being totally unfair and ridiculous, it’s not even a contest. Scholes I’d say is an under-rated great. Proper football fans know exactly how good he was in his prime. Even better than last season’s Footballer of The Year, who managed to claim that acolade with his what 15 or so performances last season.

What was it they said… Don’t Believe The Hype!

As for any of the other top 3 teams if I could pick any one player – and this is considering our midfield and it’s current problems, not just picking the best (Who probably is Essien) – then the one I think that would fit our bill best is a fit and firing Rosicky. A cracking little player, but then we’ve got a better version sitting on our own Dr’s Table.

But seeing you’ve dismissed me Digger. I won’t bother trying to explain.

Years and years and years, and oh donkey’s years ago, I used to go with this fella’s sister…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuSbsp7FHbI

In fact, my first ever time in Wembley was our final against Newcastle, 1973/74 season. She gave me the ticket. It was to the Geordie end as he played for them then. But he’s a Kirkby lad, so he sort of took the long way home.

Well, this was the sort of lad I was lucky enough to see playing that role for us, and if we’re having a hypothetical conversation about who would be best to fill that position for us right now, well, then that’s the lad I’d take without a second thought.

In fact, there’s a good little thing for a laugh… name the one player, past or present, you would love in that position?

I suppose it doesn’t have to be an LFC player, but it would make it better.

Where’s LB? He’d have loved all this.

Digger, when did you turn into Burgerman?

4 sentences to not support your argument, but just twist someone elses words…. sooo below what you’re capable of man!

but you’re right…. instead of reading what I wrote, just insinuate that I compared a player whose been a starter for 12 years, in settled side of “top draw” players and lads he’s been playing with since he was a teenager, on his native soil, played in and won a few FA Cups, CL finals, Prem campaigns, all while being adhored by the home fans… to a young lad whose been wrestling himself out from under the considerable and established shadows of SG, Xabi & Monster, while being booed by his own fans and slated by every pundit with a microphone air an internet connection.

Read what I wrote. You asked if Lucas would get into another top 4 side. (well actually you said he wouldn’t)
I think he would and asked the converse question, who from those would get into ours… (And it certainly wouldn’t be Anderson… If you believe that, then yes, you really are daft)… but at no time did I compare Lucas to Scholes or any of the other players I mentioned in response to your question.

I’m going to eat an apple now… I’m sure it tastes better than your orange!

I was at this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L8DSko4u6E&NR=1

Watch Terry Mc’s contribution, especially the last goal.

Now that’s a dream of a box to box player, in his prime. That’s the sort of player that has your name engraved on the trophy before the season even kicks off.

And you know what… Spurs were a great side thn. Had to Argentine fellas, Villa and Ardilles, who’d just won the world cup in their midfield – facing up to McDermott.

But they were a great side and had fantastic players in every position. We absolutely leathered them.

What’s the point of all that? A trip down memory lane because I’m bored in the house on me own. Nope. That’s the yard stick, despite all our off field problems, that we should be aiming at. Not the Mancs. Not the Chavs, or The Arse. Our own glorious past. There really wasn’t anyone any better, ever. And if I was Rafa I’d be digging out the old film from the mid 60′s to 90, showing them to the lads and telling them, that’s what they have to live up to and aim for.

And I’d be sure to show the parts of those old video clips, prior to kick-off where all 11 players would touch that This Is Anfield sign on their way through the tunnel.

I’ll grant you it wasn’t the best of angles, but on Sunday’s broadcast, I only saw Torees Kuyt, Johnson and Pepe reach up and touch it.

oops, forgot Skrtel. Saw him touch it too.

And that might seem daft, but its one of those mental things. If you believe its a Fortress, then you are gonna be damned if you’ll let someone come into your back yard and beat you.

The body language didn’t say that to me on Sunday.

Aitch, sadly tradition and nostalgia just ain’t what it used to be

Preach it Brother!

(sob, sob… whimper, whimper… as he watches the Team of the Decade DVD for the umpteenth time!)

FS, don’t even need to look at the link in #214. What a great ‘team’ goal!

I think that it misses the start were TMcD makes the clearance from a spurs corner. Willing to be proven wrong but not to worry though, it is defo up there with the best LFC goals of all time.

Off the top of my head, Ruud Gullit would not be found wanting in that position. What a player he was and he had a moustache, as well, at his peak, or approaching it at least.

Not a slur, just a fact at that time.

Could Rafa impose a shaving ban. It would be interesting, as a minimum, and what would the renowned media say?

Doesn’t bear thinking about.

Its the baggy shorts restricts their performance lads… all them balls swinging about.
They need those tight little shorts from the 80s and in addition to Lurg’s Muzzies… lets get some fuckin Perms happening!
That’s the key!

Though I suspect those are NOT the traditions to which FS was referring?

Alright Aitch you want capable? Heres capable. The following is a catalogue of our 3 rivals midfielders major stats (appearances and goals, I’ve left out assists cos I dont wanna be too hard on the lad!) in comparison to that of Lucas. And just to be fair and eliminate all pissing and moaning the comparison between the players details the stats from the seasons when they were 20, 21 and 22 respectively, i.e the ages at which Lucas has played in England. With 22 being the age Lucas is now for the season coming, I thought I’d show the players stats for that season as a guide to what we can be expecting from Lucas this season (barely contains chuckle!….) Alrighty….
Chelsea midfielders: (the ones Lucas would displace I’m assuming?)
1) Lampard. In the 97-98 season when fat frank was 20yrs old he secured a first team place at Upton Park. He made 42 appearances in all competitions scoring 9 times. In the 98-99 season at the age of 21 he helped the hammers secure their highest ever prem finish, 5th, appearing 41 times and netting 6. In the 99-00 season, aged 22, he played 49 times grabbing 14 goals.
2)Ballack. Aged 20 in 96-97, Ballack scored 10 times in 34 games for Bundesliga 2 side Chemnitz. At 21 in 97-98 he won his first Bundesliga with Kaiserslautern playing 18 times but dident find the net. 98-99 saw him join leverkusen at 22yrs old where he made 37 appearances scoring 4 goals.
3) Mikel. 07-08 season aged 20 he made 39 appearances with no goals and 08-09 saw an improved appearance count at the age of 21 with 55 outings but again no goals.
4) Essien. 6 goals in 29 app’s with Bastia at the age of 20 in 02-03 won him a 7mil pound move to Lyon for the 03-04 season. In that season he played 42 times scoring 3 goals. The age of 22 saw some more progression for Essien when in 04-05 he played 44 times grabbing 10 goals along the way.

United Midfielders: (the ones Lucas would……

1) Fletcher. 04-05 aged 20, Fletcher made 30 app’s scoring 3 times. 05-06 aged 21 saw 41 app’s with 1 goal and 06-07 at 22 he played 40 times netting 3.
2) Scholes. 94-95 saw a 20yr old Scholes break into utd’s first team scoring 7 goals in 25 games. 95-96 aged 21 was business as usual with 14 goals in 31 app’s. A drop off in Scholes 22nd year saw him just net 6 times in 33 games, But remember! I’m leaving out assists to be kind to our much malinged Lucas. Anyway, this is the guy you think is most comparable to Lucas Fatty? And I’m in a time warp or losing the plot you say? Mmmmmm…..lets take a look at Lucas’ stats at the end shall we? In fact, ya know what, why bother? To compare Paul Scholes to Lucas Levia at any stage in his career is farcical. Even now at age 35 Scholes is a superior player to Lucas. But I digress….
3) Carrick. 01-02 aged 20 he made 32 app’s scoring twice. 02-03 aged 21 he played 34 games scoring 1 and 03-04 saw him make 47 app’s scoring once again.
4) Anderson. He was 20 last season playing 38 times scoring none. We’ll see what his 21st year brings this term.

Arsenal Midfielders: (the ones…..

1) Fabregas. Alright lets get this one out the way first! Lads I’ve included this guys assists because, well because I know we’re having a debate here but even I was shocked by this guys figures. I mean he’s just sick. Ok, 07-08 saw a 20yr old Cesc Fabregas play 45 games, score 13 goals and make 23 assists. 08-09 saw him at age 21 play 33 times, score 3 goals and have 15 assists. At 22 the 09-10 season has seen him make 3 appearances, score 2 goals and 3 assists already. Wanna know what he did when he was 19?! Ok, he played 54 games that season (06-07) scored 4 goals and 16 assists! Wanna know what he did when he was 18?! That season he played 50 times netting 5 and setting up a further 5! Alright, moving on, thimk we get the picture here.
2) Denilson. This guy was 20 last season playing 49 times scoring 3. Currently 21, (09-10 season) he’s made 4 app’s this term scoring once.
3) Diaby. 06-07 at the age of 20 he played 18 games scoring 1. Aged 21 07-08 saw him play 28 times netting 4 goals. And the 08-09 season brought him another 4 goals in 36 app’s at the age of 22.
4) Rosicky. Found it very difficult to find information on his 00-01 season at Sparta where he was 20 at the time but between 98 and 01 wiki says he played 41 games netting 8 times. His 01-02 season saw him move from Sparta to Dortmund for 14.5mil euro at the age of 21. He made 32 app’s scoring 5 goals that season. The following year aged 22 he played 22 times netting twice.

And finally, (drumroll please!) the man who I’m led to believe would displace the aforementioned players from their starting berths were it the case he were in their squads…..I give you…..LUCAS LEVIA!!!!! (cue rapturous applause as the crowd goes wild in a Kermit Thee Frog-esque fashion!!)

Lucas. 07-08 saw a 20yr old Lucas Levia make 32 app’s scoring once against Havant & Waterlooville (great goal too if memory serves). 08-09 brought 2 goals in 41 app’s. The deflected strike against Chelsea (in what I believe was his best game in a red shirt) and a goal against a doomed championship side (Newcastle) in May. His only assist that I can recall, the oft cited now most famous assist in the history of LFC, came against those doomed Geordies last December during a rout where its quite possible, had he been playing, Fat Scouser would have scored! Anyway……

So thats the facts and figures. My reason for researching them? Well today I said that Lucas wouldent get into any of our challengers sides and I stand by that. Well, in fact it was Arthur G. who posed the question and I agreed. But fuck it, lash Digger, why not? We lash him for everything else!
As regards the above stats, the reason I drew up our opponents midfielders figures at the ages of 20 through 22 was, obviously, in the interest of fairness. Clearly it would be unfair to compare any 22yr old to say, a Frank Lampard who is now in his prime, so I did it as so to present a fair and balanced comparison. But there is another reason I did it this way. To illustrate what we, as title challengers should be expecting from our 22yr old Brazilian midfielder. FFS this guy is supposed to be the young Brazilian footballer of the year a couple of seasons ago or something? Look at his stats and look at some of the stats above again. Not many of em Brazilian footballers of the year but their figures sure make a mockery of his. Ahhh, I can hear the keyboards tapping now, ‘hes not that kind of player Digger ffs!’, ‘he’s being played in different roles’, ‘he’s no friends’, ‘big bad scary country affects ability to play’ Yada yada yada…..
Well then someone tell me what sort of a footballer is he? What is his role? And lads dont come in and tell me he’s improving since last year. Its pretty easy to improve from nothing!! Aitch I think it was you who said today he bossed midfield for the first 3 games. Did he fuck. Were you watching the Spurs game? We were cleaned in midfield for the first 70mins. Fucken cleaned. Huddlestone and Modric ran the game in the first half. It wasnt til Stevie dropped back in the 2nd half that we got some kind of a foothold. The Stoke game. Ok, decent game from the lad. The Villa game. Sorry Aitch. Bossed? Yeah maybe we had 68% of the ball because Villa sat back and let us come at them but bossed? Come on mate. He makes his now customary mistake (foul) and then heads the resulting freekick into his own net. What was he thinking? Wheres his awareness? He’s the most alone guy in the area, look around you lad, either let it go down the pipe to Pepe or really stick your head to it and send it away. Anyway, after the o.g he was anonymous. A symptom of a bad mistake and so unavoidable so Rafa was right to take him off. Bossed the first 3 games? Not even close mate. Not even close. As for my question ‘What does this guy bring or add to us?’ Please dont come in with the tired answer ‘he moves the ball along, keeps the game moving’ cos the way I see it is eh, aint that what the rest of em are doing?!? You’re gonna praise the guy for what pro footballers do automatically?! i.e pass the ball and keep it going?!

Look lads, for me its all about winning. Its about whats best for Liverpool. Its about what makes us stronger. Its about 19. Someone above asked today should we keep going, taking a chance with this guy or should we revert back to Stevie in the middle, what we know works before its too late? To me the answer to that question is simple. And 19 depends on it. Quite simply, we are a weaker team with Masch and Lucas in midfield than we are with Stevie and Masch. Its seally that basic. If we want to give ourselves a shot at this thing then the ineffectual Lucas must move to the bench allowing Stevie to slot into midfield with Benny in the hole. Immediately we become a more potent, threatening, effective team with that line up. Stevie offers goal threat, FORWARD passing, cut and thrust and importantly, is something other teams will fear. Lucas for all his endeavour offers us none of the above. And I truly doubt he ever will. I look at the stats of all his counterparts above and what they were producing at the same stage in their career and the gulf in difference and class is patently obvious to me. Yes they’re all different types of players and stats dont tell the full story but even though say, Carricks stats arent that impressive I can see and say what he brings to the team; controls the game,sprays the ball, sets utd in motion. Mikel, again not eyecatching figures but I know what he brings to Chelsea; good tackler, big and strong, holds the middle allowing the other 3 to get forward. Again I ask what does Lucas bring to Liverpool? How does he make us stronger? The answer I’m afraid is…he dosent. And thats why we’re weaker than our rivals in the middle when he plays. And thats why they’re stronger than us in midfield. And thats exactly why he wouldent get into any other top 4 sides midfield. Look at the figures above. They were better than him when they were his age and by jesus they’re better than him now.
Apples and oranges? Couldent have said it better myself.

Digger, those stas are pointless unless you add details like “what clubs they were playing for at his age” and how many of those appearances were off the bench, and how many of those were in the League and how many were in the cups etc.

Im not comparing Lampard to Lucas, i know lampard is better,but the stats make no sense. Because like Lampard and all those other players you mentioned, at around age 21, they were playing in their home countries (Lucas was captain of his u21 brazilian team?). Lets not forget this kid travelled half way around the world with no fam or friends etc. Much harder in my opinion. So you are comparing a player at 20/21 who is playing away from home etc to a player who has been virtually brought up in that country.

Btw, this season, ive played 20 games and scored 10, fuck me im better than Lampard at his young age. GIve me a fucking EPL contract

I think I’ve got most if not all the clubs named there Akka except where obvious i.e Fletcher is obviously utd etc. Where you having problems? As for the sub appearances and breaking down the comps I just lumped all the appearances together and I dont see what difference the competition makes – they’re all senior appearances. I dont see how what competition a player scored a goal in makes any difference. They played the games and got the goals no? But if you think the stats are pointless then fair enough.

Attaboy Digger. Much better effort than the 4 line manifestos you’ve been trotting out… but fuck me, I’m sorry I said anything now…. that makes the Old Testament, the New Testament, and War & Peace look like lite reading!

You obviously took your time to research the stats and fair play… you believe them to be healthy support for your argument…. I just don’t happen to think stats tell the real story… stats mean about as much to me as a youtube video of someone scoring 8 overhead bicycle kicks or Barnes-like mazy runs from the halfway line to score… I’m left thinking… “what’s he done for the rest of his career?”

We’ve created the most attempts on goal so far this season… impressive stat… yet look where we are.
In my last 4 seasons playing, I scored one from the halfway line in every season… doesn’t make me Xabi Fuckin Alonso mate.

Now I know you’re just gonna think that’s avoiding the evidence, your evidence anyway, but we clearly have different criteria, coz I’ll adress one paragraph and that is your question about whether I watched our first three games.

I watched Spurs twice, Stoke 3 times and Villa twice. And our midfield wasn’t overrun in any of those games.

Lucas and Masch were forced to play deep (as were Insua and Johnson) as a result of the Keystone Kops incident between JC and Skrtel. Prior to that, we were settling the game nicely… that incident sent everything tits up!

We controlled Stoke from start to finish and all their threats came from lumping balls over the midfield and attempting to win Delap throwins, so what are you on about.

As for Villa… pulease… SG’s mistake for the pen was far worse (I know, I know…”shut your mouth, how dare you?”) than Lucas for the free kick… and there isn’t a single player who would have just let that ball go and not stuck his head out… oh wait, there was… Torres not jumping to clear the corner that gave them their 2nd… but of course he’s Torres so “sshhhh don’t say anything!”

Lucas’ own goal was no different than SG’s O.G. header in the Carling from Lumpy’s free-kick… shit happens.

And I’m sorry but… seriously… Carrick…. really?

To be honest with you, I think the Lucas issue has to be laid to rest because frankly we are going to have to use him this season regardless of whether one likes it or not what with our meager finances. I don’t mind, I think he played well against villa. Do we want to emphasise Stevie’s strengths behind Torres, or do we compromise and look to strengthen our central midfield? I think both options are right. That’s why we can’t reach an agreement on this one. Personally, I would rather maintain the SG-Torres hotline.

The bigger question is, if it must be asked, how long can we wait for a player to develop?

Everyone agrees that Carra has been wonderful for us for the last 5 years, but before that, he was essentially a nobody. I mean, we were baffled as to what exactly his attributes were. He wasn’t a bad player, but he seemed to be not particularly good at anything. If the same kind of discussion had taken place 7 years ago, many would have like to have seen jamie shipped. But that would have been a mistake retrospectively.

I think the mancs would have had the same discussion with fletcher. He is massively under-rated; I think he has been one of the best players at the mancs for them for at least 3 years now, but before that, again, he was a bit player. I doubt the mancs would want lose him now though, but he is nearing the twilight of his career. He could well have been shipped off in his early to mid 20s.

There are many other examples.

This is a really difficult question.

I concur with FS’ notion that that 70s team is the one we should look to aim. But we are far, far too many players short to accomplish that. That team, those players, almost everyone of them could pass, score and defend. That team was total football at its best. You can talk about the great real and barca sides but none of them could defend and attack as well. But that liverpool team could do both.

I would like say something for our defensive four against Villa.

Goal 1 : Absolute bad luck. You cant do anything about it. Unfortunate part is it happened with Lucas.

Goal 2 : Ref’s fault to begin with. Torres accidentally coming in front of Carra resulted in both loosing the villa goal scorer.

Goal 3: Absolute rush of blood. It happens to great players. Everyone is human.

The point i am trying to make is, at Tottenham we lost because we didnt play well in the 1st half. 2nd Half we were better. Immediately we scored the first goals, their left back scored a goal which i feel he can only dream off. How many times he will score tht type of goal? I doubt not even once more.

Aston Villa, we made them look like an average defensive outfit(They are surely amongst the top 6)with so many openings.

It’s just that sometimes things just dont go the way you want them to be. The expectation of winning the title is making it even more difficult.

I said this earlier too. Lets forget what happened and look forward to the upcoming fixtures. We have 35 games more to go.

My prediction:

1. The champions this season will find it hard to get even 86 points.

2. We might loose more then last season but i am sure we will win a large percentages of the games we drew last season.

Digger, you’ve convinced me and I’ve changed my mind…
You aren’t losing the plot. You are suffering from something though…

Firstly, if you look back to comments after the Villa game, to put it mildly, everyone on here was disagreeing with you on Lucas.

I came on the next day, after letting the dust and disapointment settle, and although I didn’t completely agree with your opinion of Lucas I defended you and said you had a point.

I then ended up in a 40 odd hour debate on Lucas, that frankly I didn’t need nor want. And while not agreeing with your opinion of what was wrong with the lad, I still said you had your point. And on the player himself, I said, at his age and stage of development, he wasn’t ready to boss/run the midfield of a team with title winning asperations.

A full fucking day it took me to explain that simple notion and that I wasn’t slatting the fella. I even made a joke about you causing me the grief, then running off the pub and laughing while I was left to take it on.

You come back in, have a little nibble at me, even though I’ve defended you. And then make the daft – yes daft – claim that Lucas isn’t good enough for any of our rivals.

To that, I said he’d get into Man U’s easily. I stand by that. And I also said there’s only really Paul Scholes at the Mancs that you could compare Lucas to.

I made a mistake there. There’s Fletcher too I suppose. But in terms of position, role in the team, type of player Scholes and Fletcher are the only comparison.

So let’s take Fletcher out of this straight away. I wouldn’t swap Lucas for 10 of him. My opinion only granted, but I think a very reasonable one.

So, back to Scholes. I said that, and I stand by it… Scholes is finished.

Have you watched Scholes this season and the last?

FFS If he played for anyone but the Mancs, he would give at least 1 penalty away every game he plays in and would get about 4 red cards a game.

So, again, I qoute what I first said… “he’s finished and now a liability to the Mancs.”

(QUEUE: Scholes having one good game this season, and you can drag it out of the file marked Things To Pull Fatty On.)

But I digress an all…

So, after saying I’d take Lucas over Scholes today – which was the subject you started – I then praised Scholes by saying… he’s one of the best ever, and most underated players in Premiership history.

In fact, I called him “A Great, and by that I mean a Premiereship great not history of world football great. And I stand by that. Scholes is underated by people who don’t really know the game, but he is rightly recognised by those that do.

He’s also quite a nice decent, working class lad. At least he seems to be. As that’s another thing to his credit… He’s never in the papers or on the telly spouting off. But I know he is married to his childhood sweetheart, an ordinary looking working class Salford girl. No models and spit roasts for him. He’s a family man with a gaggle of kids, that are never paraded in Hello magazine or the likes. In fact, he is never involved in any sort of controversy, and all hands speak highly of him, including LFC players. And I’m glad he’s at the end of his career because I rate him that highly and see another chink in the Mancs armour that they’ll struggle to replace now he’s gone.

Okay, I never went to them lengths about him in the original post. But after praising him in that post, and more or less saying Lucas wasn’t fit to lace his boots in his hey day. I also stuck to my guns that I’d have Lucas over Scholes any day now. To save you doing more research, I’ve cut and posted what I said to you…

“But if you are comparing Scholes in his hey day with Lucas, besides it being totally unfair and ridiculous, it’s not even a contest. Scholes I’d say is an under-rated great. Proper football fans know exactly how good he was in his prime.”

After going through all that too-ing and frow-ing, and you doing all that intensive reseach, you’re take on it, again cut and pasted, seems to be…
“Anyway, this is the guy you think is most comparable to Lucas Fatty?”

How the fuck do you come to that?

But then after having your little digs at me, then to top it off by giving your own theory of what the team need to do to solve the problems we are having this season… Funny thing is, you put forward the exact theory, team and formation that I suggested about 24 hours earlier!

The mind truly boggles!

But I swear to God Digger, from now on when all hands get on your back for your frequent – and mostly unfair or unfounded – attacks on individual LFC players and the manager, I will just leave you to get on with your own persecution complexed filled posts cos there’s no fucking way I’m putting meself in the frame again to defend you or allowing you to drag me into it when I have.

Lost the plot? I always thought that was a bit unkind that. I just thought you moved the goalposts a lot to suit your agenda or when you had painted yourself into a corner. I think there’s a bit more to it now though. But then who the fuck am I to judge, especially when I intend to never get caught in your little mind game ever again.

So we agree then Fatty…..he wouldent get into any of the top 4′s midfield?! Joking, joking. Jeez Fatty, talk about persecution complex’s? I was just making my point that I’d still have Scholes over Lucas, pointing out why. You disagree? you disagree. who cares? As for your exclusive theory of moving Stevie back and dropping Lucas ffs a blind man could see that is necessary (well maybe not in here). And mind games Fatty? Yeah, you keep a sharper eye out for my tangled web in future, wtf?!…….sigh…..

Fair play Aitch, cheers for the heads up on the stats. I agree that they dont tell the full story but they certainly must count for something and are surely some guide to what we should be expecting from our own 22yr old. Except for Fabregas, hes just fucken sick! Anyway, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the ‘bossing’ the midfield issue. Interestingly no one has offered yetto define what it is Lucas brings to the team, whats his value, how does he make us stronger, mmmm……

Digger – what a post back on # 224!! nice piece of investigative journalism there . Anyway, I think all this Lucas talk has perhaps distracted people’s attention to Saturdays game – which probably like the next few games – is a “must win”. The reason I say that is a “must win” game so early in the season is twofold:

1) we need a good solid performance to get confidence back on track – players and fans alike. Another defeat and the media will go into over-drive and that kind of negativity grows like a virus in a team

2) I don’t think we can afford to be potentially 9 points behind Chelsea (I see them as the out and out favourites for the title this year) – even at this early stage in the year.

If I’m honest, and I know I’m gonna get slated for saying this but, the omens aren’t great for Number 19 this year and my gut feeling is that we may have to wait another year to have a squad that is strong enough (and hopefully owners that are less frugal with their cash) to reach the Promised Land. But if that turns out to be the case, it doesn’t mean we have nothing to play for. Quite the oppoiste actually – we need ensure nasty City or Spurs don’t get into the Top 4 and then, more importantly, win a trophy (it’s been a while) I’m very confident that we could land Big Ears # 6 – that wouldn’t be a bad consolotion prize would it??

Cheers Arthur. Yep it would be nice to let the Lucas issue go but thats down to Rafa. We’ll see on Saturday I guess. I too think Saturday is already a must win game this early in the season. I dont think no. 6 is on the cards though. As important as Xabi was to us in the prem he was doubly so in Europe where possession is the name of the game. A European style player, Xabi was always superb in the c.l for us. I think the loss of his cool level-headed pinpoint passing will be felt most here. Whens the draw?

Draw is at 5pm Ingerlund time.

We would get one team from each pot.

Pot 1

Barcelona (ESP)
Liverpool (ENG)
Chelsea (ENG)
Manchester United (ENG)
AC Milan (ITA)
Arsenal (ENG)
Sevilla (ESP)
Bayern Munich (GER)

Pot 2

Olympique Lyon (FRA)
Internazionale (ITA)
Real Madrid (ESP)
CSKA Moscow (RUS)
FC Porto (POR)
AZ Alkmaar (NED)
Juventus (ITA)
Glasgow Rangers (SCO)

Pot 3

Olympiakos (GRE)
Olympique Marseille (FRA)
Dinamo Kiev (UKR)
VfB Stuttgart (GER)
Fiorentina (ITA)
Atletico Madrid (ESP)
Girondins Bordeaux (FRA)
Besiktas (TUR)

Pot 4

VfL Wolfsburg (GER)
Standard Liege (BEL)
Maccabi Haifa (ISR)
FC Zurich (SUI)
Rubin Kazan (RUS)
Unirea Urziceni (ROM)
APOEL (CYP)
Debrecen (HUN)

Sorry, meant to say we get one team for pot 2,3,& 4.

There is a potential for a wicked “group of death”.

Could you imagine this one: Liverpool, Inter, Atletico Madrid, Wolfsburg?

Odds are it will happen to us.

Digger, great effort on your work. Damn impressive and must have taken a lot of time. Most appreciated.
We played well and lost the game. Sometimes it is like that. Not one of our days. Taken postively, I think we are lucky it is happening at the beginning and hopefully not at the end. Now to see us hammer the next twelve wins in as many games.

As the late, great John Lennon said…
I say yes. You say no. I say stop. You say go. I say goodbye and you say hello.

Sigh, indeed.

I’d like…
AZ Alkmaar
Besiktas
APOEL

Knowing our luck, we’ll probably get…
Real Madrid
Dinamo Kiev
VfL Wolfsburg

Liverpool in Group E…same side with Arsenal

LiVERPOOL First one out of the Hat..
Group E #1 seed

Same half as Barca

Who did we draw?

Oh my F**king God…

John crying terry is the Club defender of the year

So much waffling. They’ve been watching the national lottery programme. Just draw the bloody teams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The draw is interrupted by an award to john Fucking Crying terry

Chelsea got Porto

Lyon!

Ac Milan got Real Madrid….

Kaka…….

We got Lyon…..Hmm…

Barca vs Inter…

WOW…. Mourninho… Ettoooo Ibrahamovic

United got easy draw out of second seeds…CSKA Moscow

Mancs got Moscow…..

Alex Fungushead almost peed in his pants

Real Madrid in group with AC Milan

Xavi best midfielder in Europe, ahead of Iniesta and SG

I got a feeling we wll got Athletico again…

Attached below is the comments in the guardian.co.uk….notice the last sentence….. how true is it?

* Teams are seeded based on their Uefa co-effieicent
* Teams from the same country cannot be drawn into the same group.
* Teams from the same national association will be split across days. So, as England have four teams, two will play on Tuesdays and two on Wednesdays.
* And Manchester United always, always get an easy draw.

Besiktas for United. I suppose could be two tricky away games.

..and mancs get Be Shit tas…..

What an easy shit group…

Fiorentina for us. Not too bad

and we got Fiorentina….

Xavi Hernandez won midfielder of the year

Arsenal AZ Alkmaar and Olympiakos. Pretty straightforward for them as well

Chelsea got Athletico wow…. bash them aguerro

Lets not get Wolfsburg… and mission completed for tonight…

Striker of the Year is Messi

Kopblogger of the year……..donalfromthegap
……….oh my god I dont know where to start …so I wont!

Over and out

Arsenal got it easy….shit

Debrecene of Hungary.

Lyon
Fiorentina
Debrecene.

Not bad you have to say

We are going to Hungary!!!

United get Wolfsburg

There is a God after all..

Mancs got Wolfsburg

we get the Hungarian side

We got the worst draw of the four English teams…
but still we have avoided the worst possibilities

Group C is going to be one hell of a group.
Some good Football Teams in that one

Group A
Bayern Munich
Juventus
FC Bordeaux
Maccabi Haifa

Group B
Manchester Utd
CSKA Moscow
Besiktas JK
Wolfsberg

Group C
AC Milan
Real Madrid
Marseilles FC
FC Zurich

Group D
Chelsea
FC Porto
Atletico Madrid
Apoel FC

Group E
Liverpool
Lyon
ACF Fiorentina
Debreceni VSC

Group F
Barcelona
Inter Milan
FC Dynamo Kiev
FC Rubin Kazan

Group G
Sevilla FC
Rangers
VfB Stuttgart
AFC Unirea Urziceni

Group H
Arsenal
AZ (Alkmaar)
Olympiacos
Standard Liege

Messi footballer of the Year..what a surprise….

I think it’s very difficult to tell which English team got the easier draw, unless you know everything there is to know about all these European clubs. Just remember last year when Standard Liege proved a lot tougher in the qualification then most of us had expected.

I don’t think Lyon is nearly as good as they were some years back. Fiorentina is on their way up though, and will most likely go through to the next round along with us.

Skeat, I disagree that we got the worst draw of the English teams. We’ll need to play better than we have thus far, but we should be able to get through with 4 wins and 2 draws?

Chelsea have a tough group with Porto and Atletico Madrid. All three advanced into the round of 16 last season.

I prefer our draw to the Mancs. Trips to the defending German champs, who will be a difficult, as well as long trips to Moscow and Turkey. Nothing better than a match on a frozen plastic pitch in Moscow in November/December. As we know from previous trips into Turkey, those fans can get crazy.

Hopefully the TV people decide to give the Mancs a couple of lunch time Saturday kickoffs immediately following those trips.

We’ve never won in Turkey, aside from sometime in 2005 when we overcame some Italian team on PK’s.

As far as our group is concerned, things could be a little tight at the top. I’m assuming that all three teams will take 6 points off of Debreceni?

Dropping any points to them will really hurt someone’s chances of getting through.

Just done a bit of research into United’s group stage history.

96/97…Juventus, Fenerbahce and Rapid Vienna.
97/98…Juventus, Feynoord, Kosice.
98/99…Bayern, Barcelona, Brondby.
99/00…Valencia, Fiorentina, Bordeaux.
00/01…Anderlecht, PSV, Dynamo Kiev.
01/02…Deportivo, Lille, Olympiakos.
02/03…B Leverkusen, Maccabi Haifa, Olympiakos.
03/04…Stuttgart, Rangers, Panathinaikos.
04/05…Lyon, Fenerbahce, Sparta Prague.
05/06…Villareal, Benfica, Lille.
06/07…Celtic, Benfica, FC Copenhagen.
07/08…Roma, Sporting Lisbon, D Kiev.
08/09…Villareal, Aalborg, Celtic.
09/10…CSKA Moscow, Besiktas, Wolfburg.

Ten years since last tough group!

Tricky group lads? Lyon and Fiorentina will be no pushovers but all in all you’d expect us to progress. Some other great ties in there; Madrid vs AC, Inter vs Barca. Whens the first round of ties? Cheers Knight, yeah it took me about 2 fricken hours to research and write it! None too swift on the old pc is Digger. Really you should applaud Aitch though, he made me do it! Fatty thats freaky you quoting John Lennon, his song ‘mind games’ been rattling round my head all day since I read your post! No kidding!

sachem, you are correct in what you say about Lyon. They are nowhere near the team they were 3-4 years ago. They have been going downhill steadily, which culminated in them losing the league last year.

On top of this Benzema joined Real and Juninho also left at the end of last season. They are currently in a rebuilding phase and although they are second in the league their performances have not been poor – a bit like us last year. Also the quality of opposition has not been that great either.

For me Fiorentina will be the most dangerous but this is only because I have absolutely no idea who this Debreceni VSC group are and their capabilities. However, since they were in the last pot, they should not worry us too much if we perform to anywhere near our level.

Hi guys. I took a short self-imposed exile for a while as I simply refuse to read any knee-jerk posts following that abysmal result on Monday. In fact, now I’m still resisting the urge to scroll any further upwards on reading any posts made before today.

Anyway, on to the Champions League draw, and I must say it’s an OK group. All three opponents we’ve never met before, especially Debreceni (perhaps Nemeth might know something about these guys, who seem to like to wear all red jerseys just like us). According to wikipedia anyway.

(Debrecen is the second largest city in Hungary, in case anyone’s interested in that as well, so any travelling Reds might want to have a look at the nice historical buildings along the way. )

I say it’s an OK draw because on paper, we should be taking 6 points off Debreceni, and at least 4-6 points from the 4 matches with the other 2.

Besides, here’s what our domestic schedule looks like around the UCL dates:

Burnley (H)
Matchday 1
West Ham (A)

Hull (H)
Matchday 2
Chavs (A)

Sunderland (A)
Matchday 3
Scum (H)

Fulham (A)
Matchday 4
Birmingham (H)

Man City (H)
Matchday 5
Small Club (A)

Blackburn (A)
Matchday 6
Arsenal (H)

Already, 4 of the 6 PL matches after the UCL match are against our rivals (including our tiny neighbours), while MD1 is followed by West Ham, which isn’t that easy either.

MD5 is bad in that it’s sandwiched between the noveu rich Man City and our blue neighbours.

So this draw should on paper allow Rafa to quickly wrap this up by MD5 and concentrate on getting our form back ASAP.

Useless fact for us and United fans. Since Champions League started no team from groups B or E have ever won!!

Groups C and F win most often which this year gives us R Madrid, Barcelona, AC Milan and Inter Milan.

Put yer money on them!

Just saw our group fixtures of Champions League.

To be frank, our group is the toughest among all the other English clubs.

Some people on this blog who are thinking that Lyon are easy competitors are surely underestimating these guys. I mean after losing last year’s League to Bordeaux, they have geared up with some fine transfers and signings.

I looked at their team on the net and was quite impressed. At the back they have Reveilleire, Boumsong, Cris, Clerc, Aly Cissokho, Grosso. In the midfield they have Kim Kallstrom, Bodmer, Michel Bastos, Toulalan, Makoun. In attack they have their new signing Lisandro Lopez who just scored a hat trick in the CL qualifiers. Apart from him they also have Sidney Govou, Gomis, Delgado and Ederson.

Not bad at all!

Fiorentina on the other hand have Kroldrup, Dainelli, Donadel and Gamberini in defence. In midfield they have Montolivo, Santana, Jorgensen, Cristian Zanetti, Marchionni. In attack they have Adrian Mutu and Alberto Gilardino.

Why do Arse and Manure get nice CL fixtures every season? Damn!!

Skeat, WTF are you babbling about? Worst draw of all the English sides? Are you kidding me? Lyon are a shadow of themselves with Benzema and Juninho gone, and taking on Italian teams happen to be our specialty.

Just got this news. You all might be knowing this already, but I was shocked to see Wesley Sneijder and Arjen Robben leave for Inter and Bayern. And they claim they were forced to leave the club. Really shocking!

Great job breaking it down for us Kinny. There are some tricky little runs of fixtures in there.

Is it wrong of me to wish the Mancs are away to Moscow or Turkey for Matchday 3?

Not even going down the Digger debate, the stats are a pile of shit when trying to compare players. Goals to appearances, was it a five minute appearance or the whole match, give me a break. You can take any stat and make it support any argument. Digger could disagree with himself and put up a really good argument that makes no sense.

I like the draw, yes Arsenal got it easy yet again, call me cynical but the Mancs have to travel to Russia ( long trip) in the dead of winter, then back for a Prem game on the weekend, Turkey is not an easy place to go to with a hostile reception and longish journey, then Wolfsburg the German champs. That will do nicely and have an impact of their Prem form. Chelsea not so bad but A’ Madrid are a good side as we found out and Porto can be tricky on a good day and the Chavs don’t travel well. We have good footballing sides but should be able to cope comfortably, not too far to travel so I am pleased with the draw and it should not impact on our Prem games too much.

As far as the other debate goes thank fuck Rafa picks the team and I am sure it is not out of sentiment either or to prove a point, but what he see, him and his coaching staff, in training, that will be our strongest and best bet to get a result. Also what he has available at any given time? To disrupt the Gerrard and Torres partnership, that is not clicking and need to very quickly because it is vital to our challenge when Aquilani will be fit soon and Lucas is not, no matter how much you want to believe otherwise or try and convince otherwise, doing a bad job, in fact a very decent job would be stupid in my opinion and lets see what Rafa thinks on the weekend.

FS it is good to see you support Digger it only proves that the great Yoda can make mistakes as well.:)

Errr, that was sort of the idea, Digger.

And keeping in the spirit for the group stage draw…
It’s just like starting over…

A little maddie for meself and the lads in Lyon.
Gyb Fiorentina.
Finish off with a little ciggie smuggling run to Hungary.

Got to love that Champion’s League.

Sadly more Jabba nowadays Keith. Oh well, we live and learn.

KK, I’m impressed. Good bit of homework there lad, and you are correct. Lyon went out and bought some very decent players with the money they got for Benzema.

Still should walk that group though, which would be a good thing seeing we can’t get on a run!

Here’s a link to the ressie game,

http://www.myp2p.eu/broadcast.php?matchid=47016&part=sports

Click under mediaplayer under the Darts link and enter the code footy123 and you should be OK.

Not the best of image quality but better than nothing.

Fatty from the youtube vids I think your more of a Ranchor Beast

Over and out

Happy enough with the draw.Both for footballing and logistical reasons.Lyon are well experienced in the CL but are not the team they were.Still dangerous though.

Fiorentina are the improving team in Italy at the moment and again a danger but we can cope because we have the team in the group.If we play to our level we should qualify,hopefully with a game or two to spare.

After matchday 5 we`ve the bitters away and after matchday 6 we`ve the Arse at home.It would be nice to win the first four so we can rest some and bring in some kids for the last two games.

Don`t ask for much do i?

We are LFC so i don`t think it will be that simple.

Just a word on the statement about lucas not being good enough for the other big three`s sides.Well we can go to all of the other three sides and pick out one of their central midfielders and say they wouldn`t fit in our side.Does that automatically make us stronger?

Sorry for bringing up this again but my laptop is acting up again so i couldn`t have a say earlier.

TBH the CL draw is a welcome distraction.

On another note Sly sports were interviewing our MD Christian Purslo today after the draw and when asked will Liverpool be doing any more business in the transfer window he said:

“I wouldn`t bank on it”

So there goes any slim hopes some may of had of us signing one more (I`m looking at you gerry ! )

Ressy`s are 2-2 and spearing has given away a injury time peno.

Linch him!!!

Blackburn come from behind twice to win 3-2.

That John McMahon fella is fucking useless.

A 100% losing record in the league since taking over from Ablett. Fact!

Should be sacked tomorrow, the useless bollix! and the idiot who hired him should pack his bags as well!!!

Like i can`t understand this Mc Mahon fella…would he get a reserve team managment job at Scum,Arse or the Chavs?? Don`t think so.He has to go